Love how this thread's just turned into a "let's shout everyone down" festival.

One thing I'm pretty sure on - the riots won't change anything. The same money will continue being pumped into the same areas through regeneration schemes where the names keep changing but the personnel running them remain pretty much the same and the projects they fund remain the same sort of thing and as long as there's this utter "must understand and never judge" thing going on - where the only comments about how any kids are being brought up are made in the staffrooms in schools (and some of the tales I've heard and seen would shock anyone)... nothing is going to change, because there's money to be made in things failing, understanding, arts and music projects (and some of the claims from these travelling theatre/artist/music troupes about what they'll achieve are hilarious in their cheek - I've read pamphlets about how their production of Snow White will make all the children respect adults, reject drugs and alcohol and increase SATs results pretty much - I didn't half smile at it all)...

The same excuses will be made by the same people.

What kicked it off originally's really immaterial - what needs addressing is the collossally widespread perception that no justice will be done - because THAT'S what brought a large proportion of the copy catters out - no social discontent, no envy, no emotional trauma - they just fancied a freebie iPad and didn't think that with the sheer weight of numbers out there - they would get caught, pure and simple.

Because these are generally the kids whose parents WON'T buy them proper uniform for whatever reason (sometimes money's tight, sometimes money's... ahem... misdirected, sometimes they just know the school will see them right anyway - I've known far far too many teachers actually end up feeding and clothing kids in their class out of their OWN pocket - not school funds, but their kids' old clothes, or stuff they've bought in the sales themselves to keep in school because they know this is what happens).

Sometimes there's such bad attendance anyway - it's a case of tactically ignoring it and trying not to put the family OFF getting their kid into school a bit more - you do it a bit at a time, first you get them through the door, then you gently start prodding for them to remember to bring their reading books to and fro, then you might hand them a school jumper "to stop his own clothes getting mucky and save you a bit of washing" and try to gradually softly-softly move them more into line - but with families like that, often it's not even baby-steps, it's baby tip-toes because if you come in hard with the "he's not wearing proper uniform" you can scare the parent in particular off ever getting into the school at all and either end up with absences through the roof - or a parent that dumps and runs each morning or just sends them to get themselves to school on their own.

Sometimes it's money and then generally school uniform jumpers discreetly find their way into the school bag to go home out of outgrown ones or abandoned lost property from last year.

Sometimes it's parents' own issues with school, authority and uniform coming to the fore - rebellion by proxy or however you want to see that.

Sometimes it's just three weeks till the end of term and I ain't going to bug anyone to buy a new pair of "uniform" shoes when the odds are they'll be outgrown by the first week in September (and I've taken a TONNE of flack from a head for my stance on this in the past)!

The Government didn't take control away from me raising my kids, and I didn't need to be told how to raise them either.
We both worked full time but our kids were not raised by television, we paid for proper childcare and gave them proper quality time.
The biggest influence on kids in their early years is the parents, only some just can't be arsed can they.
There was something came out the other week about 5 important points in raising kids, stating how many mins you should talk to them each day etc. blimey I nearly choked I managed to work full time, come home cook a proper meal, talk to my kids, have fun with them, walk the dogs etc. and those guidelines didn't come anywhere near the amount of time I spent with mine. The difference was there was no financial incentive in having kids for me quite the opposite actually, over the years they've cost an absolute fortune.

the budget is set by 'main government' then the money is handed out to local government. In order for 'schemes' to be granted funding each year the results need to be there and they need to be hitting certain criteria in the first place. If they dont = no funding. So I am unsure where you get your facts from. As for that pamphlet, that is something I would have complained about and taken further. False advertising for a start and I would have asked for the info, references and stats to back up their claims...
I certainly have never heard of our local authority paying money to travelling circus' or travelling anything for that matter; to leave them responsible for children
As for money being bumped into areas of regeneration, I highly doubt it since most has been cut Even at that the money that does go there, again needs to be justified and it is also broken up into certain catergories, for example, money given to one ward will contain an adult literacies budget which cannot be used in youth work but adult literacies will be able to tap into youth work budget....which makes theirs less


Must understand and never judge is very different from not having consequences... I rather think the job of judging should be done by er, the Judge.

We havent really suffered the effects of 'copy catters' here as most were arrested, charged and gone to court over 'incitement' not waiting til it happened.



EDIT; and if I had kids, going to a school where the staff had a problem with the way my child was and were judging them like that and I found out this was going on but they hadnt spoken to ME about it, I would pull them out and write to the Chair of Childrens Education Services to tell them why. I remember being at school and being judged by a teacher at a bad time and yet I was FAR from a 'bad kid' at primary and they knocked my confidence so much......they practically ruined my education. I would be DISGUSTED to think that, that was still going on today and would urge them (teachers) to get an education! (and maybe give the a copy of Dont Shoot The Dog! lol)

I also knew someone who was a Primary School teacher and she helped so many 'bad kids' learn to read and write (when if previous teachers had been any good they would already have been) It was because they were met with mis-understanding and 'your bad' heres some punishment attitude that they couldnt. Less disruption, more education in a class = a teacher who knew and understood troubled kids. Good on her!

The money's been going into the same areas of my home town since the mid 1990s -the same faces appear staffing every regeneration initiative and it changes nothing.

You hear about EVERYTHING your local authority passes money to? You hear about everything that schools spend their budget on. I've seen some utterly ridiculous claims on publicity bumph sent to schools - oh and the stuff latching onto the riots and promising to fix it all - that's doing the rounds spamming education forums already. There's so much snake oil pedalled it's either pitiful or hilarious depending on your view of it.

And yes, I will continue to judge a parent who not only refuses free school meals available to them but sends their kid to school with a "lunch" consisting of a Jacobs Cream Cracker and a half a chocolate Easter egg, and whose interaction with their kid at the end of a school day consists of grabbing the painting they're presented with, muttering "wozzis it's carp" and shoving their iPod earphones back in before yanking their kid off by the arm in the direction of home - as a carp parent. Brutally put - they are and it's about time we stopped just patting them on the head and telling them they're awesome.

clothing, on its own, doesnt have a logical relationship to how young people act

for example, in Denmark they dont have school uniform, but their young people are generally well behaved, polite, hang around with their families and attend gatherings with adults and dont really hang out in gangs.
however, they also swear, as they live in a culture which outlawed censorship in the 1960's, so swear words are permitted in all media anytime.
yet young people still dont spend their days cursing aggressively and repeatedly, they just swear in a natural neutral conversational way.

then you have america, also no school uniforms, but similar youth gangs and crimes as the UK.

the conclusion, therefore, isi such things as langauge and school uniforms are not indicators of prescence or abscence of discipline, etc, as they are only relevant in the context of the bigger picture of the culture they live in.

for example, denmark has a business/capitalist system called the scandinavian social democracratic model, whereby businesses and individuals operate around a social welfare priority and philosophy.
people are NOT defined as 'consumers', but citizens, with a high degree of civic responsbility.

the UK and USA use a business model based on purer consumerism, materialism, and greed.
which leads to a corrupt society where young urban people,footballers, journalists, politicians can take take take and not give give give, or have a civic conscience.

so no, its nothing to do with school uniforms, per se.

she also helped many others who could read and write but had trouble and she is sadly no longer wth us. MANY people at her funeral knew her as their teacher. SO those methods clearly do gain respect.

If you feel someone is harming their child through malnutrition then why havent you phoned social services?

Dizzi; I am present at the meetings when funding is requested in the ward. I am an active citizen in my community and instead of sitting around moaning at the injustice of life, I prefer to put my money where my mouth is!

I.e. If you have a problem with bad parenting get off your backside and become involved in parenting classes, phone social services when you see abuse, question where money is being spent and why.....

try that where I used to live and chances are you'd find yourself beaten to within an inch of your life. Either by the kid and their friends or by the kids parents, depends on the age of the kids.

When I was a teen we responded far, far better to someone coming out of their house and asking us nicely to move along coz we were waking the baby up or whatever than to those who came out ranting and raving. These days it doesn't seem to matter how you ask, you'll get a mouthful of abuse at least and probably a broken window or a nice long scratch or two along your car.