Thats only one opinion Patch, I say again, he has helped endless dogs and their owners, just because some people dont agree with it, like me with dancing dogs etc... doesnt make it right, or me wrong. I really cannot see a problem with his methods, they work quickly and effectively, far better than going on and on for months faffing round to get one thing done!

The thing is Dawn, with severely damaged dogs, there simply is no quick fix.
Doing something which apparently shows a `miracle in minutes` is nothing but hiding or disguising an issue which will more than likely re-surface later on and probably with drastic consequence.
It really does`nt matter how long it takes to rehab a dog so long as during the re-hab process the dog and others are kept safe.
The dog which is given time to steadily overcome issues is the one which will usually overcome them for life because time was taken to gradually desensitise. Rush it and the first time the dog has a flash-back, that dog is back at square one again and often in a deeper hole than before

Not really sure what you consider as pfaffing, possibly just perfectly ordinary things, [ to me ], which are actually just about consistency, kindness, and patience

Well faffing to me is clicking and praising a dog because he DIDNT bite you for bribing him off the sofa and then giving him food! Clicking can backfire too. We have clients that have "tried" it and its gone wrong, like I mentioned, one dog would not get off the chair unless she had food offered, the owner was following advice she has seen on the TV, result, dog attacked child as she sat beside it on the sofa, reached across to stroke the dog and BANG, 7 stiches in her arm. That was a border collie and a Dog I thought a lot of. The dog was never a problem with us, never guarded nor refused to do anything.

I do agree with his methods Patch, far too much pink fluffy doggies around, and owners who are so completely useless its beyond belief. Dogs need structure and routine, not bribery and reward every move they make. I saw the E-collar episode, the ACD that had been knocked down 3 times and lost an eye, the owners had tried the collar and they failed, yet showed properly by CM, it worked and the dog was a different animal in a very short time, 2 shocks at a "mild" level was all it needed. Whether we agree with him or not, people will copy ANYTHING if they think they should, he isnt to blame for that, Victoria Stillwell failed a couple times resulting in dead dogs and dogs reverting to how they were previously, its not all perfect Patch, we carry on as we see fit.

I agree I have seen Dogs that look "beaten" but never in a way which indicated the dog had been hit or was terrified, beaten as in, "oh flip I cant win that one" He has been bitten yet he never beats a dog nor hits it, VS suggested the cocker was PTS and it never even bit her, in fact I cant remember her ever laying hand on a dog for praise nor anything else, which is why I think her methods and others dont work at times either.

Jan Fennel was all the rage at one point, now she is slated, times change, CM's techniques work, I admire what he has done for dogs, the dogs he keeps who are all rescues and the fact they are normal happy dogs with no feqar nor "issues" if only all pets were the same!

Clicking can back fire if used wrongly i agree dawn!
Any method can be dodgey if not used correctly.Loads of people have no idea of how to use a clicker correctly, & to be fair alot of us anti CM arent clicker trainers,but clicker users. Ie its a tool that we use if it is approriate.Id never click a dog for getting off a sofa & not biting, & if a dog DID bite because it didnt get its food then it hasent been taught what the click actually means.

Not all anti CMers faff around with their dogs.

Perhaps, but plenty treat them like humans!!:smt002 :smt001

There is a difference between talking about them in recognisable human terms to treating them like humans

For instance, I call my crew `my kids`, the dogs are `the big kids` and my cats are `the little kids` - those are simply terms of affection, nothing more

Mind you, my crew get to sleep on my bed including under the duvet if they want to, which is something another human won`t get to do so in that regard my crew are not treated `like` humans, they are treated better than them because my crew are more worthy

So you let your dogs sleep on your bed?? Youre kidding, right?:smt071


:smt017

:smt101

:smt102

:smt096

:smt018


OK OK, so I have 3 Borders and 3 Cats on my bed, so what!!

I am watching victoria stillwill and its just the same as CM
????????????

I don't like CM. I don't like his methods and I think he's an arrogant little man with a power complex. Just my opinion.

AS for the dog that had been run down but kept chasing cars...admit haven't seen that particular episode...I suspect it wasn't so much the shock, but a cumulative effect of the owners treating the dog differently. I suspect getting knocked over and losing an eye (by the sound of it) would have been enough of an aversive if an aversive would work on it's own....I think in that case, the surface needs to be scraped somewhat and we all need to remember you see half an hour (not even that) of the training that occured.

I don't like VS or JF either.
The only tele trainer I really realy like is Lynnon Dog Borstal, she comes across as friendly and caring and adapts her methods to the dog, she doesn't go for a one size fits all...I like that a lot and think she is fantastic.

Just my tuppence worth...

Theres a difference between treating them as humans & treating them as intelligent,senstive souls with their own needs & issues without them losing any expressiveness & indivuality.
They are also not wolves & i dont want to be a pack leader of a pack of wolves.I like to be "teamleader" of my little group of happy expressive collies ,all very different ,all with Quirks( Could be ironed out i suppose but i dont wish too).

Ive long ago(when i trained with someone who was quite CMish before CM was around) been there,got the Tshirt,i didnt like how the dogs were nor how i needed to be with them in our "socail Time",Nor did i like what i was watching when i saw the other members of the training group walk their dogs .
Saying that in all fairness the trainer had ALOT of Dogs,Alot of big GSDs & had "borders" (As in dogs staying) in all the time & apart from the little oldies they all lived together in the conservatory,& she never had a problem, even with dogs with issues,she also had dogs in for grooming that were banned from other groomers in the area,& they were fine with her.She did have a energy that the dogs respected i suppose.& it did work, but i WILL NEVER treat my dogs again how she made me treat them,they were not happier then & nor was i. (im clearly not prepared to say on a public forum the ins & outs)

So no i dont treat my dogs like humans, I treat them as creatures that i love

Im really trying to bow out of this now