Maybe you should make the owner aware of the accusations being made about his dog.

Give him the right of reply

Individual dogs show nothing in the scheme of things. Unless and until medical and breed information is kept nationally, we will never know the extent of problems either genetic or otherwise.

We will never know for sure whether pedigree dogs are more or less likely than non-pedigrees to die of causes other than old age and we will never know whether or not environmental influences or diet play a major part in unnatural cause deaths.

I believe that the vets are now looking at national data collection and this would be a good start. The KC, love 'em or loathe 'em, have a lot of data on registered pedigree dogs so another plus. We do, though, need to bring the two together and ensure that, as far as is possible, all dogs are accounted for to ensure that all this data isn't wasted.

And I am sure he is much loved
But that does not change the fact that breeding for the ring for so many generations has altered the dog from the original
If there are no problems why, after the program, did the kennel club change the standard?
To borrow a very good point to the blog linked earlier
No matter what breed they are they are all the same species, dog
And a breed that struggles to walk or breath is a pretty bad example of a dog
To be honest the mind boggles that anyone can look at the original example of the breed and compare it to where we are today and defend breeding for the show ring as a way to preserve breeds

Rips post no 384 has so brightened a dull morning

My post contained some interesting points which could be discussed, your post contains bog standard accusations with no informative content whatsoever. It's like The Sun vs The Telegraph all over again eh?!

It's quite clear to me now that you and the likes of JH are only interested in throwing insults in order to make yourselves feel better about yourselves, as do those who, for some reason feel inferior to those of us who do show. Such a shame, an opportunity for a good debate wasted by the closed minds of anti show folk.

Loving the Sun versus the Telegraph!

In answer to BM's post she writes

This post doesn't make a lot of sense I'm afraid so I can't really respond to it! All I can do is to try and put it another way: take the current Peke out of the show ring and take it back to the life it should've had when it was created and ask the question: would it struggle to live a normal life? The answer is no one can say, and that's my point. Stop to think before you judge something and condemn it purely because it's something you don't agree with. To do so would make you just as blinkered as the show people who breed regardless of health and welfare.

So she is defending the fact that the peke needed an icepack by saying that it 'might' have been all right a thousand or so years ago when it was 'created'. Well that makes it all right then---obviously. Silly of anyone to think that it would be better able to walk with out overheating.

She continues about the PDE programme

Like I said, in my mind (and those of ethically sound judgement) the end can never justify the means. It's "done some good" but if the damage it may have caused outweighs the good it has done, what good has it really done?

So only she and those who agree with her have 'ethically sound judgement'--duh!

Re the second part---no proof either way except anecdotal.

She then reposts a post on how JH got it very wrong about one dog.

Does this mean that pekes are healthy---of course it doesn't! It is like saying because David Attenborough lied about filming polar bears in the wild he can't be trusted about anything in his films!

It is yet another red herring.

Facts are that breed standards in some breeds were causing breeders to breed without thinking about what they were doing in order to win (please the judges).

They lost sight of common sense in reaching for rosettes, it was OK because everyone else was doing it so it became accepted. It took someone on the outside to shake the system and it needed a big one, they had been ignoring and being unpleasant about Beverley Cuddy for years. She has had the same flack JH has had.

Well done to both of them for being strong enough to do what they have done.

BTW---I am not anti show any more than I am anti obedience or anti working trials. Doesn't float my boat any more than baby shows do but some of my best friends show their dogs and enjoy it.

rune

I am only too happy to be told that he didn't need an ice pack/or whatever, in order to stop him overheating. That it was all a mistake and lies from the press that he used one. That our eyes were seeing something else in the TV coverage.

rune

Oh deary me Jemima! Picked on the wrong ones to bull***t about with Tim Ball and Joy Bradley! No way were they ever going to take that one lying down. I honestly don't believe this woman is as naive and 'genuinely' mistaken as she acts when she gets caught out. I think she outrageously flings mud, hoping it will stick and nobody will stand up and challenge her over it when she's wrong.

This is exactly why shar-pei breeders would not get involved in the first PDE. Allegedly an insider warned them what was going on the first time before it was common knowledge what the program agenda was. This time round, she obviously couldn't resist a taste of the old sour grapes? And they've left a nasty taste in her own self righteous mouth. I'm waiting with interest now to see if she goes for the jugular of shar-pei breeders on national TV.

I wonder if she's aware of the scandal of what happened to the first male shar-pei to be made a champion in the UK? It's a truly shocking story! As well as a showdog, he was my best friend's house pet and tragically he died a month before he was 14 years old. Even worse, his grandad who was one of the top sires in the breed's history only lived to be 15. Horrific, isn't it. Well, for Jemima Harrison maybe.

I'm not saying that shar-pei don't have their problems, but the show breeders have worked and continue to work extremely hard to (successfully in many cases) improve the health and many breed clubs have ploughed money into finding a test for FSF over the last 20 years or more.

I can think of at least one breeder she should have attacked that would have deserved it, but they just breed for 'unusual' colours rather than the showring. But that's not the agenda is it.

Mary's dogs like many of the other dogs that have to spend time in what is an a unnaturally hot enclosed space needed cooling down & others have used water sprays, coolmats(which I have for my Border Collies in the summer & they contain only water & are not frozen & they are also on sale for human use(scroll down))I know that the Golden people have to spray down their dogs before & after being in the arena.
The show dogs are not just there for a photoshoot they are moved in the arena & have to suffer the heat from the lighting just as any dog of any breed/non breed would that has a fur coat, the only dogs that don't have problems under the lighting are those who have little or no coat.

Have you been in the Arena area at the NEC under the lights ?? If you haven't you have no idea how hot & humid it gets & don't forget dogs can only lose heat naturally by panting & by sweating via their paws. When my friend was handling a GSD in the BIS arena he was over heating just standing under the lights & wasn't wearing a fur coat.

Could a Pekingese that does agility or obedience win at a dog show-who knows it would be down to the judge(s)concerned.

As for the KC changing the breed standard as a direct result of PDE, they are changing the breed standards all the time for the welfare of the dogs & other reasons. They rewrite them on a very regular basis to clarify points & make them easier(supposedly)to understand.

The Pekingese have never been anything other than a companion dog orginally for the Imperial family of China & genetically one of the closest breeds to the wolves from which all dogs have descended.

I'm not saying that some pedigree dogs do not have health problems, but not all pedigree dogs are breed by show breeder nor are they KC registered-I think the figures of KC registered dogs in the UK is about 2% of the canine population. So why did JH pick on two non KC registered dogs bred from non KC reg parents to illustrate how terrible KC dogs are ?? She has admitted that she deliberately did not include the information in the program as it wouldn't have been so anti KC registered dogs if she had. !

Sorry those that admire the woman will never be prepared to admit that the program was put together to show only one side & the program tonight will be no different.

I've already had people ask me why did I get a dog from Cornwall when there are 100s of BC bred up here in Yorkshire-they do not understand that I wanted a dog from a "proven"pedigree for working & type(as in correctly constructed & healthy-not for the show ring)& not just a BC/WSD from the bloke up the road who breeds his bitch every season & who doesn't bother wasting money at the vets

Just one point interesting that PD2 in on BBC4 unlike PD1 that was on BBC1 in Prime time. is that because it hasn't stirred up enough controversy for them to get good ratings? just a thought.

Er Beverley Cuddy's Beardies were extremely inbred & had COIs far higher that most breeders of the time-she bred Beardies so closely that her dogs changed a once extremely natural breed to one with a coat so straight & excessive that they resemble an oversized centipede. Fortunately there are good breeders out there who never went down the "Lyric John"dead end road, whose dogs are still fit for function, unlike dear Beverley

Point proven re the flack!

rune