Is it not possible that the 'limited inbreeding' all happened generations ago and that it's now time to introduce new blood into closed gene pools? I gather D Brian Plummer tried to do that in the Plummer terrier and was thrown out of the breed club of the breed that he started... but when he brought in new blood, he - at least to some extent - reduced the incidence of slipping patellas in his terriers, which seems to me an entirely sane and laudable thing to do.

obviating line breeding won't stop a GSD from being entirely different to a Border Collie, but if we were to abandon the eugenics and breed for health first and the rest later, then we might have an altogether healthier canine (and feline, and equine) population?

If line breeding were 'used sparingly' it might well be a useful tool - but my experience of looking at pedigrees is that most of them have CoI well over 20% and often higher, which is way beyond using it sparingly

but we may have to agree to differ on this - refreshing to have someone prepared to look at the concepts though...

E

Border Collies and `Working Sheepdogs` are the same breed - the term Working Sheepdogs being mainly what the KC call BCs without papers.
I have four BCs, two went into rescue with papers but came out without them so according to the KC they have had some sort of metamorphosis into another `breed` which they call WSD.
Working Sheep Dog should be a title given to a BC which works sheep as a mark of respect, yes, but `different breeds` they are not
Are some more `worky` than others ?
Yes.
But they are still BCs whether they were bred for the show ring, for working, or for `pet only`.

Just wanted to clarify that one cos it reeeaaaallllyy bugs me when people think there is a `breed difference` between a BC and those called by a name which should purely be used as a job title, and should be reserved for those dogs which actually do work sheep.

Apologies for the interruption,
carry on

ah heck, sorry - strayed off my patch

apologies

E

Don`t worry Eceni, its my daft obsession about it that made me post, just ignore me

patch, sorry to start you off again, we used to have a dog which was a pup from a working farm collie, with no papers. so no proof that it was pure bc, although it looked bc it could have been a mongrel as far as papers were concernerd, is this what kc would call a working sheepdog, just curious

Hi Donkey, yes the KC would have called him a WSD because of no papers. Does`nt matter if the parentage is definitely known, without that bit of paper with ancestors on it the KC won`t accept them as BCs. My boys for instance, went into rescue as purebreds with papers and were previously registered but when I adopted them without papers and had to register Defa for agility, they decided his gene`s had changed from BC to WSD
They don`t do it to other breeds, a rescued Lab then registered on the activities register is still a Lab, a Poodle is still a Poodle, its only BCs as far as I know which they are so petty about.

This web site answers all the questions as to why line breeding will ultimately destroy a breed - AND how to change plans now - well worth a look

http://www.canine-genetics.com/cake.htm

Having read through this with interest can I revert to the original question. 25 years ago or more a lot more breeders believed in line breeding. Back in the 70's the breeder of my bitch wanted her mated back to her grandfather, & on asking around, as my previous two litters had been outcrosses though with some lines the same on 5th generation, I found that this was very common in show animals. Have to say I never did mate her to her grandfather but that was because she refused to be mated by him, not because of my desires. So what your OH's friend told him was correct & was very common at that time.

Sadly, I think it's still common practise, not only among what we might call professional breeders, but also among the hobby breeders who now think it's normal to mate a dog to two different bitches, mate him again to two bitch puppies from these litters and then mate a dog and bitch pup from the resulting F2 litter. The IoC of these is horrendous...

I was talking on line to a geneticist with an interest in canine population dynamics, who was explaining in fascinating, if depressing, detail, why reducing the genetic diversity in this way reduces both the immune response to outside antigens and also compromises the immune system making auto-immune disease more likely. It was her opinion, that line breeding will always reduce the genetic health of a population.

doesn't stop people doing it, does make our dogs less healthy. Lab mice, which are the ultimate in 'line breeding' are kept in sterile conditions and each line has a list of all those things to which it can no longer raise an immune response. Our dogs, it would appear (and cats and horses) are heading the same way.

E

Eceni
Thank you for the link on canine genetics , very interesting reading indeed.

Mary