Now, that IS the perfect procedural list!
Im impressed!

Now you've got me confused - the inclusion of m/chip and tattoo numbers on kc reg docs is a relatively recent thing, and in my several yrs experience in rescue (even breed specific rescue), kc reg papers are unlikely in the majority of cases, to accompany the dog.

RE: the tracing a breeder via the chip.
When chipping a litter, the litter belongs to the breeder until such time pups are sold, so breeders might well register the chip(s) to themselves, as they are entitled to do, and new owners would transfer should they wish to do so. In my experience, as with kc reg papers, most would prefer not to fork out, unless they need the chip in their name for pet passport purposes.

NB This does not affect 'ownership' in legal terms.

PETLOG certainly, is happy to note on the database where the dog has been 'chipped by the breeder as it is acknowledged that breeders who chip their litters, usually do so because they actually give a t*ss what happens to their breeding.
If a breeder wants this information noted on the database, writing ''chip implanted by breeder' in block caps at the top of the paperwork, or in the 'notes' section if registering the chips online is required.

hope this clarifies

Sorry for the confusion, although im not too sure if i understand your question correctly either.

I think i have, so here goes.

I was talking about 2 types of dog: stray and handed in by owners.
The strays often had no built in ID. If they did it would usually be a chip, occasionally a tattoo. These ID's were never registered to a breeder, but an owner. (although often we couldnt read the tattoo number, so we couldnt contact anyone).

Handed in: Again, often the owner usually hasnt chipped or tattood. However, if they originally bought a dog from a KC reg breeder, the owners usually give us the papers. Handed in dogs dont just run up, we arrange appointments in advance. We request any paperwork to do with the dog. They give us little folders with vax cards, dog training club leaflets, and breeders papers. We never searched the document for chip or tattoo numbers, as it had the breeders name, address, and phone number anyway. We would phone them, but they always said they couldnt help.

I understand you would register pups to yourselves while you own them. But shouldn't you phone the Petlog etc yourself and ask them to change your address to the person you sold the dog to? As you rightly say, you cant rely on owners to do it.
If you dont have the new owners details registered on the database, then wouldnt it be the case that it wouldnt be there fault if they couldnt be contacted by the stray kennels/dog warden in the event of their dog being picked up?
Naturally, if your details are the only one registered on the database, then you would be phoned. This is fine in itself if that's your policy. As we did that in the rescue as well (but we owned the dogs for life). And we asked the owners to keep us up to date with their address, so we could ring them. However, earlier you posted that breeders had to chip dog to themselves because they often had to save their progeny from rescues/dog wardens as the owners hadn't been found.
But then they cant be found, as they havent been registered?

Or did i get the wrong end of the stick?

Hi Kruse,

There are two small rescues local to me who take in strays [ though I will say I think some are not strays at all but people handing dogs in who don`t want to admit they actually own the dog or cat they have taken in.... ], and they don`t have scanners nor have them checked at the vets nor does the warden check any for them apparently, [ the warden does know the rescues and is on good terms with them ]. Most taken to them seem to be when out of hours, or the dog warden is`nt available there and then, [ or when the dog warden refuses to go out - the last time I tried calling the warden for help catching a dog the response was that they only collect a dog which is not loose and on the move and has to be within office hours ].

I do think every rescue should have a scanner if only to check for chips in case of dog theft or spiteful people taking someones pet but claiming ownership when handing them in to a rescue, and I do think chipping should be compulsory if only to snare such dog stealers as well as to track down those who abandon their pets.

Compulsory chipping would I believe save a lot of dogs lives ie those in pounds which kill after seven days - far too short a time imo, having found a dog whose owner was on holiday for a fortnight, his dog had run off from the owners parents who were looking after the dog - he was contacted and flew straight back from his holiday but how many dogs have been killed because of their owner being away for more than seven days and the dogs carer had`nt rung the right police station in time - not that it always helps as police stations have a knack of losing track of dogs or even forgetting them in their holding kennels, one known to have died of starvation and dehydration and a recent one close to death for the same reason in police kennels - no one realised the dogs were there apparently...].

Like you I have rarely seen a clear legible tattoo on any dog but a racing Greyhound [ and of course as we all know many of them have their ears cut off to prevent identification from a tattoo ].
My landladys dog is tattoo`d but you would`nt know it, hers just looks like a natural colour marking now its so faded, and hers was properly done by an experienced pet tattoo`ist.

If chips were compulsory there would be no margin for error [ no excuse iow ], for rescues / holding centers / police etc to scan every dog every time and all over in case of migration because if all dogs had to be chipped those checking for a chip would know it was likely to be in the dog `somewhere`.

This is the procedure my vet follows for dogs as well, [ and for any other species being chipped in front of the owner ]. My cats have usually been chipped when under GA for neuter but he still checks the chip in the packet in front of me first, the chip packet is then attached to the paperwork which goes through with the cat, and when bringing them through for me to take home he scans them again in front of me and shows me the number against the paperwork to show everything is in order :smt001

Hi Patch, ironically we had a lot of x-racing Greys with illegible tattoos.
totally agree with your points re theft etc.
there is NO excuse for every rescue, vets, dog warden (be they privately contracted or directly employed) and boarding kennels not to own a scanner.
We used to be contracted by Bromley council for stray dog kennelling. They contract out dog warden services privately. The private company didnt have to pay for a scanner and the council didnt give them one! Rediculous. So we did all the scanning when the warden arrived with the dog.
The council will buy a scanner if they employ the dog warden themselves. Is your warden contracted or employed?
Do the 2 small rescues have the actual strays kennelling contract? Or are they just helping until the dog warden arrives? If the latter, they would probably expect the dog warden to do the scanning. But then if he isn't a direct employee, here we go again!!
But if they took the dog to a vets anyway, i cant see the point of not asking him to scan the dog? That way they get scanning for free and they nor the dog warden nor the council had to pay for a scanner!

We had occasions when someone bought us a dog claiming it was a stray, when we felt it was their dog. But as we used to have the stray kennelling contract for Bromley council, we couldnt turn away the dog, even if we were full. Unsurprisingly, these dogs werent chipped anyway.

thanks krusewalker for the clarification, but I would still question the number of people who a) have any/all paperwork such as you describe; b) could find it to give to you (most people havent a clue where to find it and c) why a rescue would really care about a registration document as it is hardly a prerequisite for rehoming....and very few general rescues would contact a breeder in any case? Dont get me wrong, I salute yours if it does because I think all rescues ought to follow suit - mind you I think all breeders shoudl be accountable for anything they breed!, but I digress)

The breeders are contactable because they have indicated that they are the person who implanted the chip and this is noted on the database (as you will be aware all micro chip implanters are indentifiable via their own unique PIN). In the case I mentioned the owners were on hols, and there was no alternative person/number to contact, so they phoned the breeder having identified her and her details via her PIN.

NO I certainly wouldnt expect the database to accept a transfer of registration over the phone - I could be anyone!

And on a serious note: Please do not misrepresent my posts by implying I think microchipping is to 'save their progeny from rescues/dog wardens'. I work very closely with rescue and dog wardens, and the words YOU have chosen to use, do them a great disservice.

I am countering the inference from you that breeders just cant be bothered when contacted, and quoted a situation where a breeder clearly could be bothered (as most are).

All good points. All true. For my *own* rescue, I didnt mean all pedigree dogs that came in arrived with papers, but some.
It wasnt rare though. Yes, we always requested all documents re the dog, particularly vax cards. Those that wouldnt have a clue where their pedigree papers were located were invariably the same as those that never found their vax cards.
The cool people made folders which contained everything.
We didnt ask for a pedigree doc to enable us to rehome the dog, but so we could ring the breeder.

But that was the only point of my question. I was confused as well. In your first post you said you know breeders who chip dog themselves then register themselves on the database, as they have to because the owners aren't contactable in an emergency.
The you later wrote you dont change the details on the database after you have sold the dog. You give the owners the option, which thye wont pay for. So i replied how can they then be contactable if their details aren't on the database, so shouldn't you arrange the transfer of the chip when you sell the dog?
So I wondered if you *actually* meant both of you are on the database?
And I did say i am asking these questions as I might have misunderstood your post.
So from the above paragraph, I am *now* right in understanding you *DO* mean both of you are on the database?

I never said you should. Its all done by paperwork. We did this at my rescue when the dog was signed over to us from the owner.

You have lost me here
I never said this about microchipping or your activities.
A disservice to whom? sorry, dont geddit.
I thought we were both merely sharing our relevant experience and then subsequently asking more detailed questions we each of us was confused or to what the other meant. When you told me you were confused, i replied accordingly. When i tell you i am confused, I am misrepresenting you. How does that work out

No, i told you about the breeders *my* rescue contacted.
I never said others cant be bothered. All the same, it is still the case we never found one breeder that took a dog back.

If you knew me for real, you would know i dont do inference.
If I write something or ask a question, the words you see are the words I mean. I don't do code, so you don't have to read between the lines in between, as there arent any And you need not worry about 'what's being said by what's not been said', because if I wanted to say something, I just would!!! For example, if I felt ALL breeders cant be bothered, I will write "All breeders cant be bothered"

Besides, if i was on a mission to misrepresent or infer things about you, why would i have just sent you rep points and called one of your earlier posts perfect?

Hi Thandi, two of my crew were handed in to rescue with their KC papers. Their breeders did`nt want to know...

She`s employed as far as I know

No, they don`t have a kennelling contract, it seems to be a `helping out` type thing, the contract kennels is a bit of a distance away so the two I know of are much closer to hand for the area.

I used to do pick ups for them and vet runs but I always had to ask their vets myself for them to scan, it certainly was`nt / isn`t routinely asked for by them, their vets were suprised when I used to ask them to do it but that was me asking because I thought it made sense, and was`nt a policy of the rescues concerned [ a lot of their policies did`nt make sense to me though so I ceased having any involvement with them ].


Aye, such cases are I think a lot more common than many realise Compulsory chipping really does seem to me the only sensible way to go. If someone is giving up their dog they could at least be honest about it, the dogs deserve that at the very least