Well done. Obviously dogs mean more to you than just what you can get out of them. Which is how it should be. Imo this is how a good breeder should treat their dogs.

Of course I'll excuse you :smt001
Not it's not about puppies but it was mentioned about selling to strangers and that is what we do with puppies so I can't really see the difference as long as the same vetting and after care is offered.
Every dog should have a happy, loving home that is all that matters in ethical terms I believe.

This will be a perenial problem to the small hobby breeder who the public like to buy from these days. The temptation could be great to breed from a lessor and lessor quality bitch who has had some sort of placings at show because of a reluctance or inability to keep her plus another that might prove to be a better prospect plus all the still living generations before. I don't think this is of great value to the breed or those that buy the breed in the future as pets. In modern day life if you narrow it down to all those that have the facilities for large numbers you are norrowing down the number of ethical breeders from good quality show stock even further opening the market up even more for the less ethical breeder something my breed is already plagued with.

I dont quite know what you're talking about here... Presumably you dont show your dogs if thats what you think its like Im sure it is for others, but we try to make it a fun day out for our dogs. They aren't left on the bench, apart from the pug before her classes. She is in a crate with her bed in so she can get some sleep as she gets very tired. But the others will be out, having a look around the show and in the stalls, we buy them toys and treats there (which they pick themselves!!) and they'll sit with us outside the ring for a while before they go into the ring. Im sure some showdogs have the life you talk of but i can assure you ours dont.

What i mean about not giving Amber the time she needs, is that i would take her to ringcraft twice a week (pointless if she isn't being shown) and i had started taking her to an agility class on mondays. I had planned to show her mainly and do a small amount of agility to give her something else to do. She wasn't bought as a pet, i'll be honest about that, she was treated as a pet, she has as much love and attention as we gave the other dogs, but we bought her knowing that if she diudnt make it, as so many of that breed dont, she would be passed on to a more suitable home.

And as you may have noticed, we have not bought another toller and have no intention of doing so, therefore your comment about "bringing in new ones" is irrelevant. We decided to get out of the breed as they, in my opinion, are going very much the wrong way with the breeding. They need to be more strict about the quality of dogs they breed, and need to import more dogs. I am not in the position to add anything positive to the breed at this time so have chosen not to continue in that breed. We have not bought any new dogs since rehoming Amber and have no intention of doing so... Im honestly not sure what you were meaning by that

I am not at all ashamed of what we did, why should we be? We have ensured Amber has the best life. We could have just sold her to someone to breed for as much as we could get, but like i've said, she deserved better than that. She was ten months old when we rehomed her, i could never subject her to another 12 years+ of being sat at home doing nothing when she was not the type of dog that was happy with that. If you would be willing to do that YOU should be ashamed.

If this thread was indeed about parting with older dogs once they have "served their purpose" then no, this is not relevant to us. Chloe is 7, has had two beautiful litters for us and is now spayed. She is our housepet and will remain so until the day she dies (hopefully many years from now!!!). She's looking fantastic for her age so we plan to do some shows with her, but she's a bit of a handfull so maybe not too many

Little Delilah cant ever be shown or bred from due to her medical problems. She will also remain a much loved pet until we lose her and she is happy with that. As is Riley who refused to show

We all know the different temperments of our dogs and i could not give Amber what she needed so she went somewhere where she could get all the work and stimulation she needed.

Jessica, for goodness sake stop taking folk on here for idiots! I have been showing dogs for 18yrs I think I know what goes on its people who have been in it 5 minutes that seem to know it all ! You said :
By all means take her out of the ring, but rehome too? why? just because she wasnt winning, how awful.

You also said:
So you think showing a dog once or twice a week is the type of life an active Gundog needs? or did it just suit YOU at the time?

How wonderful the dogs are allowed to choose their own toys, that must be incredibly satisfying for them. Dont try to paint a rosy picture jesssica, you rehomed a dog because she no longer served a purpose for you, I and a lot of other people think that is bad, very bad, and the focus of your attention in your dogs lies within what they can achieve for you, not what they are all about themselves. You are trying to justify it but saying she was wrong to breed from, WHY have you GOT to breed from a dog? that isnt in the rules of showing is it? at least not in the last 18yrs it isnt, you chose to get rid PURELY because she wasnt winning because lets face it what would of been the point of breeding from a dog with such faults, no market for that is there, people that know anything about them wouldnt want them would they, they are not a popular pet, so trying to say you were being responsible in NOT breeding from her is pathetic, the reason must be because there was no market given the breed and the faults with the dog.

I am VERY passionate about people discarding dogs that outstay their usefullness, there are practically no reasons I can think of that would justify it.
Dawn.

Jessica, sorry, but I'm confused as to why you got Amber in the first place. Had you not researched the needs of the breed?

I have kept out of this debate as I really don't know much about showing/breeding, but, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out that re-homing a dog because it's of no further use, is wrong

I could of bred from any of my dogs, especially Luca, but as my two GSDs have no paperwork/health checks I chose to spey/neuter them. Luca was speyed due to a breed fault. At no time did I ever think about passing any of them on. My priority as a dog owner is they're pets before anything else. They're not toys that can be discarded once they serve thier purpose

are you?

Would it have been acceptable if Jessica had her pts then?

I entirely give up now, Dawn you are just twisting what im saying.

If in your 18 years of showing you have treated your dogs as you said previously then i am sorry for you and your dogs. My dogs lead a wonderful life, as you will be able to see from my posts and pictures on this forum. We live surrounded by countryside so they get walks daily, off the lead, running through fields and doing what proper dogs should, and i include the pugs in that too, they are treated like dogs as well!

We bought Amber as we loved the breed, and she was able to do the showing, which i love, and the agility which is something i'd always wanted to try. We lived in America when i was young and the tollers over there are very different to how the are here, in quality at least. It was not a breed i wanted to stay in, not because of the dogs (although some of the temperments of many being bred from are rather suspect) but that i disagreed with the way people were breeding them. You can make money quickly and easily from them as they are a popular rare breed, so instead of careful breeding regardless of how much profit is made, people are breeding poor specimens to other poor specimens to produce puppies to sell. No, showing is not all about breeding, but we show our dogs to ensure that they are of the quality to be bred from to produce new showdogs for ourselves. The pugs are mine, rather than the labs, and i am fortunate to have a very, very beautiful little pug who is probably as close to the standard as anyone could wish for. I would love in 10 or 20 years time to be showing pugs which all descend from her so yes, i do plan to breed my dogs and as long as its done peoperly i see no reason to argue that.
I dont know why you keep bringing Amber's showing success into the conversation Dawn, as im fairly sure i never mentioned it. I did say that she had done very well at Crufts (her last show with us) which to me was worrying given her many obvious faults. This again made me feel the breed was not going the right way and i felt it was in the best interest in this small, rare breed that we take her out of the showring and any future breeding programs. Im sure you'd agree, that is the most responsible thing to do.

As i have said repeatedly, and im getting a little annoyed that you are ignoring it, we rehomed Amber to give her a BETTER life. If you do indeed work your dogs, you will know what a wonderful life that is, she is with her owner all day and is having the most fantastic time. I do miss her and it was a harder decision than i could explain to have to let her go but given the needs of our other dogs, and the amount of time we could devote to doing agility or something with her, i didnt feel it was the right thing for her.

I see by your remarks that you know very little about tollers. They are infact incredibly popular for agility, working AND pets. Most breeders have waiting lists of 2 years or more, and we had a list of people wanting Amber puppies. We could have easily sold her puppies with people being fully aware of her faults. They certainly did not make her offspring hard to sell in anyway, but it would have made breeding from her unethical IMO.

Dawn... I would suggest you take a step down from your high and mighty view of the world and re read the previous posts without your "i have been showing 18 years and know everything" head on. Just because i havent been showing my dogs as long does NOT mean i do not have knowledge and understanding of what is in the best interests of the breeds i own. If you are happy to show a dog with faults then that is absolutely fine, i have no problem with that. But for me, i would prefer to not show a dog which i know to have very obvious major faults. I am lucky enough to have made some very good friends in the dog world who have vast amounts of knowledge about breeding and genetics and i am not too proud to ask their opinions about my dogs and breeding, but i wont be told that rehoming my dog rather than giving it a boring life at home which it wouldnt have enjoyed, is "shameful". Tough decisions have to be made to better a breed and ensure the future of that breed and hopefully other people in that breed will take their dogs out of the breeding programmes too

But.. As i said, my old girls (and boys!!) will remain with me until the day they die after they have had their time showing

I'm now at a complete loss as to why you bought Amber in the first place if it wasn't a breed you intended to go into anyway.
Becky