I think we're actually in agreement here LP. Your dogs struggled on pre-prepared food, so the benefits of the change in diet make it worthwhile. My dog is fine on pre-prepared, so why would I change?

phew!
Yep, I think we can safely say we are in agreement
and why would you want to change? if it ain't broke and all that

Hi Ramble - no need to apologise We are all just putting our opinions across in a friendly debate and without opposing views there wouldn't be a debate

I personally don't think the digestive system of dogs today is that much different, if at all, from wild dogs. Evolution happens over many millions of years and processed commercial dog food has only been around for decades so IMHO I suspect that dogs digestive systems are still geared to cope with raw feeding.

The first dog biscuit was made by an American in England back in 1860 and it was another thirty years before it was produced in factories. With extensive advertising campaigns canned and dry dog food became very popular in the 1950's and there are now hundreds, if not thousands, of different producers world wide. Conversely the first raw diet was eaten millions of years ago and was found to be a great success - the proof being that the canine species continues to exist.

I feed raw to my dog, I believe it is the best food I can feed to my dog and have no problem at all with other owners exercising their right to feed whatever they consider is best for their dog.

I think that the raw fed dog of a responsible owner is no more likely to spread infection than the kibble fed or cooked diet dog is.

It all comes down to standards of hygiene and I maintain the same standards of hygiene in my kitchen when handling raw meat canine consumption as I do for human consumption. I pick up after my dog at all times and do not allow him to lick people's faces and make sure hands are washed if he has licked them. He does not eat off any of our crockery and his own food bowl is washed after each meal.

Good post lizziel

Ramble; Sorry Ailsa but I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit more her and see if we get any other interesting facts
quote form my earlier post; Dogs have recently been reclassified as Canis lupus familiaris by the Smithsonian Institute (Wayne, R.K. "What is a Wolfdog?" http://www.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.htm), placing it in the same species as the gray wolf, Canis lupus. The dog is, by all scientific standards and by evolutionary history, a domesticated wolf (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 472.). Those who insist dogs did not descend from wolves must disprove the litany of scientific evidence that concludes wolves are the ancestors of dogs. And, as we have already established, the wolf is a carnivore. Since a dog's internal physiology does not differ from a wolf, dogs have the same physiological and nutritional needs as those carnivorous predators, which, remember, "need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system" to "grow and maintain their own bodies" (Mech, L.D. 2003. Wolves: Behaviour, Ecology, and Conservation.

also; Additionally, dogs and wolves share 99.8% of their mitochondrial DNA (Wayne, R.K. Molecular Evolution of the Dog Family). This next quote is from Robert K. Wayne, Ph.D., and his discussion on canine genetics (taken from http://www.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.html)."The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mDNA sequence..."

So I think we can safely say that a dogs digestive system is almost entirely the same of that of the wolf and still has the same nutritional requirements.

All this being said, although I feed some of mine raw, I'm still a bit of a wimp and still feed the oldies the on a cooked diet and do use a good quality dried, but I'm always interested to learn more.

Just for the record the youngsters on the raw diet have the best coats and are very healthy. That being said our old boy on the home cooked will be 17 in October...not a good coat, but then I wouldn't expect it at his age.

Keep the opinions, facts and views coming folks as it's all good stuff

No probs Kath and Lizzie..all good natured debating I know!!! :smt002

Okay, just been watching Wife Swap, an American one and it got me thinking about this thread. One family were urban Americans, stylish,chic,ate out, cleaned and bleached everywhere...into education. The other family lived in the sticks (90miles from a town) and ate a ..wait for it...RAW food diet. They bred and slaughtered their own chicken and beef and ate it raw and ate about 12 raw eggs a day...they even, on occasion ate rotten meat!!! They did not clean, and I mean did not clean....because they said any bacteria is good. :smt078


So...it got me to ' thinkin'....
If we are descended from cave men, then surely we should be able to eat a raw food diet too as I'm sure they didn't cook all their food....
Why did we start to cook???? (It's the historaian in me coming out...forgive me!) I'm guessing it's because it tastes better and is easier digest and eat.
So...here's the thing, if we could eat raw too (since we should be able to given our ancestors did, just as dogs ancestors did) then why don't we????? Surely our systems must be able to cope with it too, if a domesticated dog, who is descended from a wild animals system can cope???



Devils advocate here...but would be genuinely interested in what people have to say about it as it is something that has literally only just occured to me as a result of seeing Wife Swap!!!

Not a strong illustration if you consider that humans share 90% of their DNA with the rest of the living world. If it only takes 10% of my DNA to turn me into an earthworm, or a fungus, or an amoeba, then I would say 0.2% could potentially make a significant difference to a dog's digestive system.

I've just watched that too A!!! Excuse me whilst I go to the loo and throw up won't cha, as I just watched her eating a plate of raw chicken!!!!!

But, the point is that it doesn't..they are identical!

I've just watched some of the wife swap thing too and I have to say yuk!!!!!!!!Probably being a bit of a hypocrite her but, there's definitely no way that I would eat raw chicken and I do like to keep everything as germ free as possible. However, I did take some of their points about the good bacteria and so on and it just goes to show whatever we think they all appeared to be healthy on it (well physically anyway)

raw fresh vegetables are better for us nutritionally as they contain more vitamins and mineral. these are lost during cooking.

as for the raw meat, well, i wouldnt, but if the meat was from a reliable source and not tampered with in any way, then i dont see why we,as humans, couldnt eat raw.

steak tartar, is raw minced beef, a blue steak is almost raw, and quite tasty, yes i've eaten it.

so we could if we weren't conditioned not to.

An interesting question Ailsa which I have to admit I have never researched before - all my research on raw feeding was conducted with dogs in mind

It is thought that fire was first used by man between 1.5 million and 3-500,000 years ago so the human digestive system has had a lot longer to evolve to cope with a change of dietary habits, than the 50 odd years in which dogs have had alternative diets available to them.

There is divided thinking on the efficacy of the human appendix and whether or not it is still a necessary part of the human body but some scientists think one of it's original functions was as a part of the digestive system that dealt with very tough to digest foodstuffs such as tree bark. As the average human no longer tends to eat a lot of raw tree bark it is thought that the appendix has decreased in size due to the evolution of man's diet which no longer needs an appendix to aid digestion.

As well as genetic reasons for our bodies reacting to certain germs and bacteria I personally think that nurture plays almost as large a part as nature. People who have been brought up in ultra hygienic conditions will often succumb to ordinary everyday infections as their bodies have not had a chance to build up resistance to germs but other people who have been exposed to everyday dirt can often fight off coughs and colds a lot better - this is not a scientific opinion just my own

Would be interested to read other people's thoughts and findings.