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Borderdawn
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04-07-2013, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by zoeyvonne View Post
It is very interesting to hear about other countries only castrating for health reasons, It has been practically pushed on me since he had his first check up at 9 weeks old, They make me feel that i'm doing wrong by him, not getting him done
So it is good to see that it is not essential, he is not so bad really
Have a read of this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hal-he...comm_ref=false
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Tang
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04-07-2013, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
You shouldnt feel bad at all. If you have a dog aggressive dog removing his testicles wont change that. Castration is not a "cure all," it very rarely helps in behaviour issues because testosterone is so important for a dogs confidence. Vets push castrating because they are taught to, we are among the only countries in the world that advocate pre pubescent neutering, despite the proven problems it causes. In country's like Norway for example, its against the law to have a dog or bitch neutered except for medical reasons. Its considered unnecessary mutilation. The Vets and owners face prosecution if its done without good medical reason.
I thought I read somewhere that the law only applied to dogs, not bitches? (I'd have to check again) but not all vets agree with the law banning it and some have spoken out against it. And, oddly enough behavioural problems are one of the reasons they will do it!

If a male dog is very aggressive with other dogs or bites a human then his owner can write a detailed letter to the vet requesting he be neutered.
And they've found 'ways round it' too apparently and it is legal to neuter horses, cats and pigs. (Cats being free to roam, they don't want a stray cat problem!) Norway doesn't have a stray dog problem.

I do find it a bit odd if it is considered 'cruel' that it is OK for cats, pigs and horses but not dogs!
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Tang
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04-07-2013, 05:26 PM
(would like to make it clear these are not MY views - I am commenting about an article I read recently) here:

http://sciencenordic.com/should-dogs-be-neutered

ScienceNordic, launched in November 2011, is the trusted English-language source for science news from the Nordic countries.

It states in the article that that almost ALL Vets in Norway are against the ban.

The NFSA is currently working on a regulation under the new law. The government agency has stipulated here that the neutering of dogs is permitted when mandated by utility, or if it helps give the dog a justifiable quality of life, including social contact with other dogs.

We know that the sex drive of some male dogs makes them aggressive against others. Dogs are social animals so in such cases a veterinarian could consider such a procedure in accordance with the regulation,” says Knævelsrud.
So it seems the very problems being discussed here are considered to be grounds for the ban to be lifted and the dog allowed to be neutered?

Behavioural consultant Løberg has noticed that more dogs are neutered or spayed than before.“I’m experiencing much more acceptance for neutering and spaying among the public, even though our legislation is against it.”

She thinks this could be attributed to a mounting number of vets getting their educations abroad, where the practice is more common, and they bring this culture home with them to Norway.
I must have dreamed up the bit about bitches not coming under the law. Can't find that now.

Bit ironic though that more dogs are being neutered since the law was passed banning it than were before?
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Borderdawn
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04-07-2013, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tangutica View Post
I thought I read somewhere that the law only applied to dogs, not bitches? (I'd have to check again) but not all vets agree with the law banning it and some have spoken out against it. And, oddly enough behavioural problems are one of the reasons they will do it!



And they've found 'ways round it' too apparently and it is legal to neuter horses, cats and pigs. (Cats being free to roam, they don't want a stray cat problem!) Norway doesn't have a stray dog problem.

I do find it a bit odd if it is considered 'cruel' that it is OK for cats, pigs and horses but not dogs!
I was told it by a leading reproduction Vet here in the UK, she is German and lectures on these things.
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Tang
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04-07-2013, 05:38 PM
Told what?

I am reading it on a Nordic Scientific site. if you click the link you can see the whole article. It does make it clear castration is not a substitute for training. But it does say all the other stuff too about the increase since the ban.

About it being allowed for cats, horses and pigs.

But I think one of the main factors is that Norway does not have a stray dog problem. If they did perhaps they would allow it. They allow it for cats for that reason - so they won't get a stray cat population.

And it DOES state quite clearly several times that aggression towards humans or other dogs is grounds to have the ban lifted and get the op done.

And does state that most vets are against the ban.
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k_azu
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04-07-2013, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
I forgot to say Re: the winky slime, it's just lubrication which is essential to allow his penis to move in and out of the sheath. .My Staffie Diesel doesn't have enough winky slime and is forever getting his lipstick stuck, which requires me or the OH to apply vegetable oil and ease it back in, it's quite painful for him having it stuck out all the time.
I have never thought this could actually happen! that would definitely be my OH's duty! I am not touching his lipstick
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Tang
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04-07-2013, 05:40 PM
Passing laws is one thing. Applying them is another.

We've had a no smoking in public places law in place here for years. NO ONE takes any notice of it. So someone could well cite Cyprus as having a total smoking ban but it would not reflect the REALITY.

We've had a compulsory helmets for motorcyclists law for even longer. No one adheres to that either.

When they pass laws in the UK or have them handed down from Brussels, the Uk tends to insist on adherence to them and make sure everyone does. Tis not so elsewhere.
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Borderdawn
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04-07-2013, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Tangutica View Post
Told what?

I am reading it on a Nordic Scientific site. if you click the link you can see the whole article. It does make it clear castration is not a substitute for training. But it does say all the other stuff too about the increase since the ban.

About it being allowed for cats, horses and pigs.

But I think one of the main factors is that Norway does not have a stray dog problem. If they did perhaps they would allow it. They allow it for cats for that reason - so they won't get a stray cat population.

And it DOES state quite clearly several times that aggression towards humans or other dogs is grounds to have the ban lifted and get the op done.

And does state that most vets are against the ban.
Told it wasnt allowed except for medical reasons. She said pretty much all of Scandinavia. Cats yes, I can see their reasoning.

Some of my friends on FB say they dont have stray dog issues because the laws governing dogs are so strict. never gone "into" it with them but whatever they do it seems to work.
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Tang
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04-07-2013, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Told it wasnt allowed except for medical reasons. She said pretty much all of Scandinavia. Cats yes, I can see their reasoning.

Some of my friends on FB say they dont have stray dog issues because the laws governing dogs are so strict. never gone "into" it with them but whatever they do it seems to work.
How about the Norwegian vets saying they've never seen so many mammarian tumours as since the ban was brought into law?

And there's something about it not applying to UTILITY dogs either.

It's not a total ban by any means and I will find the article where I read how they are getting round it just for 'owner choice'.

But my whole point to begin with was that castration was being talked about here to help with aggression. Then it was said that it doesn't help. Then said Norway has banned neutering. But AGGRESSION is one the grounds to overturn the ban!

That's my main point. That even in a country where there is a legal BAN on neutering you can have it done if your dog shows aggression to other dogs or humans! So they must think it WORKS to combat aggression mustn't they? Or why would that be a specific exception to the law?
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Trouble
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04-07-2013, 06:02 PM
Taken from the APBC Website
Will neutering my dog make it less aggressive?

This really depends upon the reason that your dog is aggressive. As seen in FAQ “Are male dogs more aggressive than female dogs?” neutered male dogs are less likely to show aggression, but this is probably because they do not learn to use it in the first place. Once aggression is learnt as a response to a situation, neutering a male dog (also called “castrating”) is unlikely to have much effect. Castrating dogs before they start to show aggression may well reduce the future likelihood of some individuals becoming aggressive, but once they have learned that aggression is a successful response, the learning does not go away. There is also strong anecdotal evidence that neutering a male dog can actually make some forms of aggression worse.
Female dogs show less aggression than male dogs in general, but neutering a bitch will not affect aggression unless it is driven by female hormones, for example nest guarding in false-pregnancy. Again there is evidence that neutering a bitch can make some forms of aggression worse.
If your dog, either male or female, is not showing any signs of aggression, neutering them may make them less likely to show aggression in the future, but there is no guarantee. If your dog is already showing aggression you need a professional behavioural opinion as to exactly what the cause is before considering neutering as an option (See FAQ Where to go for help).
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