Hi, crate training is popular in the UK too, but as you say leaving puppies in crates all day is unacceptable. The replies you have read are directed at Labman, as his idea on raising puppies is to keep them in a crate without food, water or bedding pretty much all day. All responsible dog owners would find that unacceptable I think. My youngest puppy sleeps in her crate, it keeps her safe and also gives my older puppy some space. I don't think crating pups is black and white. I've used crates for 2 of my pups, but it didn't work for the others. Rio just lets herself out of the crate, and lets the others out too!

This is the UK attitude from most people as well - All I would disagree with is the last bit - IMO it is never acceptable to leave a dog of any age in a crate all day long.

The majority of people (that I meet at least) crate train thier pups for when they are left, or at night or the car (or usually all 3!)

And I certianly think that any animal should have access to water.

I think you`ll find zoo animals have cage size regulations. Maybe we need the same with dogs. If a dog is in a crate it cannot walk round in for a couple of hours in the morning, then a few hours in the afternoon, then to sleep, it is effectively confined in a small box for most of its life.
Of course the dog settles. What else is it supposed to do?
Crates were first used for travel and vets, then for very young puppies for short periods. Now they seem to be the box you can put them back in when you can`t be bothered to dog-proof your room or provide an adequate living space for them.
JMO.

Hi Elisabeth I agree there is a place for the crate in training but I think a crate should be used with care and not as somewhere to confine a puppy for long periods on a regular bases.

Labman has told us in previous posts about the methods he uses to train puppies from 7 weeks of age.
The puppies are crated for very long periods of time without water or food on mesh so that when they relieve themselves it drop through. They aren't allowed bedding in case it gets wet or is chewed . The puppies are fed less meals than most people here advise and given no water for most of the day in the belief that being crated slows the body down so less water and food will be required and the puppy will soil less. I guess feeding only 3 meals a day to a small puppy as Labman suggests fitted in better with his working hours.

If a puppy is to be left for long periods there are alternative ways to do this, it is possible to puppy proof a room or provide a puppy play pen so the puppy can at least move around and as nature dictates relieve itself away from the sleeping area.

I personally don't think people should have puppies if they intend to leave them for long periods, dogs are not intended to be solitary animals. There are plenty of older dogs in rescues, they are better suited to being left alone than a puppy so if people can't be at home with a puppy a rescue dog is a much better option.

When treating a puppy in the way advocated by Labman you risk all sorts of behavioural problems eg obsessive compulsive disorders caused by boredom and lack of mental stimulation and eating feces. I can't see how a puppy treated in this manner Labman suggests will receive the correct amount of socialisation or training including house training.

Here are just a few quotes from Labmans previous posts to demonstrate the methods he uses.

I notice Labman mention in some of his posts only leaving puppies for four or five hours at a time, when doing this he is neglecting to say that even when coming home at lunch time if the puppy is crated morning/afternoon/all night it is spending most of its life in a crate at a time when it should be exploring the world and getting used to sights and sounds.

What is even worse is that Labman says he is training large numbers of puppies on behalf of some anonymous organisation. His methods of depriving puppies of access to water go against the advice given by your own animal welfare organisation The Humane Society of the United States see below point number 7
quote..
''Give your pooch a nutritionally balanced diet, including constant access to fresh water.''

http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/dogs/tips/dog_care_essentials.html

Labman has now begun to moderate some of his suggestions after the protestations from many of the members here. However I feels because people have disagreed with him he is now posting with the intention of causing a reaction.

I have consistently warned people that if a dog is left in the crate all day it must have a mid day break. If you work with their body, withholding food and water while in the crate and not giving them room for much activity, they do fine. Others doing the same and I have very good records turning out happy, well adjusted dogs. I suspect the OP will see she can't live up to the extreme, unrealistic, unnecessary standards of the majority here and disappear just like all the rest.

But it's not just about a puppy being able to relieve itself is it? What about interaction, socialisation, play, training etc. It's so important to spend quality time with your puppy which you cannot do if you are at work all day. If you work and want a dog, get an adult dog! And preferably a dog walker too.

In the UK there are plenty of people who work and have dogs too. We just don't advocate leaving them for hours on end with no water, no company and in a small crate. We like to deal with our animals somewhat more humanely.

Given that you've posted a number of times about leaving dogs in crates all day with no water and crating them overnight too, one wonders where and how your supposed Guide Dog puppies get their socialisation and training. Something tells me (and call me cynical if you like) that there is no Guide Dog organisation and you don't puppy walk for one. No assitance dog charity over here would let their pups be treated like that.

Puppies are tiny, they don't have a big bladder and regulary need to go a toilet, and they also can not hold a lot of water, I can't imagine how you are able to get away with such a attitude when it comes to your pets, oh no they're not yours are they, they belong to a 'guide dog school', I would also like to know where you got the above info from? As its very twisted and deluded IMO

In the UK there are many people who work for a living, but they would never dream of doing such a thing, when you get a dog its up to you to make that dogs life as good as it can be, because the dog never chose to live with you, and how do you expect a puppy to be able to thrive when its left in a crate all day? With no socailisation or socail interaction, and a crate does not allow for much well any excercise, I can only imagine how your dog must feel at being let out of its crate when it actually does be let out.

I live in the real world, so do many people who have puppies, but they still care for them, without having to leave them in a crate for such a long period, I'm surprised that you are allowed any animals, let alone puppies. If you was in the uk this wouldn't be allowed to happen, water is a basic need, and I can't imagine anyone not giving it.

Can we try this theory on you please?

I think that too, from what I know there is a real long list as to what a puppy walker for the guide dog has to do with the puppies, as these dogs will be going everywhere helping the blind person get about day to day, including on trains buses etc, and I think that the puppy walker has to be home most the day with the puppy most of the day too, so that any training can keep happening. And I would also think that they would use positive methods too, I might be wrong.

I believe that either all of Lab mans dogs fail, or there is no guide dog school, its just that Lab Man thought that this would give him more credability on this forum.

Sorry for all this mods, I usually ignore LM, but I've come on more recently, and his attitude is getting to me.

Labman you just don't get it do you, dogs are highly intelligent social animals and treating puppies the way you treat them is inhumane and you own humane society would agree with this.

You may get away with treating the puppies entrusted into your care in such a careless way but don't come on here telling people you are an expert and know better than everyone else as you frequetly do because you clearly don't know very much at all about dogs .

Neither should you be suggesting that other people treat puppies as you do when you have been repeatedly told by many members here that your methods are unacceptable.

I wonder how you would cope stuck for most of your life in a crate having food and water withheld and unable to leave your bed to relieve yourself .
Being let out at lunch time is not enough for a puppy from seven weeks of age when it is confined morning/afternoon and night.

Our standards on this site may be unrealistic to you because you clearly have very low standards, I wouldn't trust you with a stuffed toy never mind a real puppy.

You think you know about dogs when your knowledge is negligible. Your posts consist mainly of quotations from your posts elsewhere on other sites .
Having come to this site full of very knowledgeable owners and dog professions /trainers/behaviourists and you are clearly out of your depth.

Some of your suggestions are ludicrous like telling poor owners who ask about a bitch coming in season for the first time /when should it be spayed that their puppy may be killed by other dogs, or advising people to use a mouse trap to train a puppy not to jump up.

If you continue with posting should inappropriate suggestions they will be refuted.

Ps I would be grateful if you could please PM the details of the organisation you work for and I can then check if what you say is correct . I will also pass their training methods on to the Humane Society in the USA for scrutiny