Well I know of two "failed" guide dogs Ailsa, one GSD and one Lab that both failed on excessively high hip scores, and I also know of a G Ret, owned by the same lady as the GSD (she was puppy walker) who failed because of A Topic dermatitis. Nobody said they breed from unhealthy stock and its everything you can do to ensure healthy pups, but as you know these things sometiomes go wrong, Im afraid Guide Dogs are no different.

This lady aslo had a Leonberger,( or Estrela cant remember!!) I believe that passed, few years ago now.

Simple check out the GDBA scores in the BRS against those of the same breed tested by show breeders.

Certainly in GSDs they are actually slightly worse & in Labs about the same.

Has nothing to do with whether they accept or not and I have never claimed that the partis etc are healthier then solids, all my dogs are healthy whether solid or not. The only claim I have made is that every black and tan bred balck and tan tested in Germany for prcd-PRA is clear of the disease, that is a FACT.

Some show people are still denying that there are actually any problems, you only have to read the boards to see that.
Becky

Not claiming Guide Dogs always breed healthy dogs by any stretch of the imagination Dawn, but Joedee made a sweeping statement about Guide Dogs breeding matching that of show dogs. I would disagree and as far as I am aware there is absolutely no statistical evidence to prove or disprove the statement. I would love to be made aware of it and see it if it is in existence.
To say that the Guide Dogs has the same level of problems as show dogs is so sweeping. Generally Guide Dogs breed first generation crosses. Their breeding stock is either bought in (as pups in most cases but recently I know a GSD was brought in as an adult) and reared with PWs then tested to see if they can become 'breeding stock'.
I am not sure how any stats could be out there to back up Joedees claim. For a start there would have to be a disclaimer on those dogs that are BOUGHT in.

I would love to see the stats, believe me. I suspect they are not out there though.

In my own experience I have yet to meet a dog that failed on hips scores. I know a lot of breeding stock..I know a lot of pups that have had their hips done.
I know some that failed on temperament, I know some that failed on skin issues (which I think is down to stress but that is another issue)...but I know none that have failed on hips, nor do I know anyone else (other than you Dawn) that has. I am not saying they aren't out there. I have no doubt they are, but given as an organisation they breed around 1000 pups a year they are bound to. I can't see that there would be the same number of hip score failures with GDBA as there would be in the show world. As I say I would like to see the stats, especially for the 'etc' part of the comment.

Also is Joedee referring to working Guide Dogs or breeding stock? Failed Guide Dogs are a totally different issue to failed breeding stock (as failed breeding stock could well end up as working Guide Dogs....)

But where is the evidence of those dogs that were specifically bred by GDBA against those dogs BOUGHT in by GDBA?
What about Curly Coated Retrievers?
Border Collies?
Golden Retrievers?
Flat Coated Retrievers?
Poodles?
The list is endless....

Where are the stats showing Guide Dogs bred dogs have the same/worse results than show dogs?
Not all stock is tested Joedee so your statement is both sweeping and inaccurate...the stats aren't there. Dogs destined for work are not hip scored.

My final words on this as you obviously think the sun shines out of the GDBA bred dogs

GDBA dogs that are bred by them are all registered as Guidewell with the KC so a quick look through the BRS HD/ED/eye tests results shows up the dogs scores , no need to know about bought in dogs as on the whole most are pure GDBA bred, with the occasional out cross to a stud dog. Then a check with the KC online Health Test search means you can check backwards for parents scores etc. if a dog is out of/by a bought in dog it's offspring are registered as Guidewell & the KC health search shows up the parents details.Simples as the Meerkats would say !

As for the F1 Lab/Golden crosses my only experience of one of them was at a dog club & it's claim to fame was it had bitten every trainer, but me(never let it get near enough)it was a failed guide dog-oddly enough it failed on temperament with other dogs, a bit like the famous Blue peter litter from which only one became an actual working guide dog, the dogs had an almighty fight live on TV on the occasion of their 1st birthday , the only one not involved was the one that had been puppy walked on the program Prince.

You have a very one sided view of show breeder of dogs like GSDs & Labradors, the breeders of these dogs are on the whole(depending on the type of the breed being bred)responsible & already do all the health tests available. They do not deny that there are problems, but if they are breeding from fully health tested dogs what more can they do. Certainly the GSD/Labrador breeders I know & whose dogs I know very well, set higher standards than the GDBA for health testing criteria, where the GDBA will breed from a dog/bitch with hip scores up to a certain level these are much higher than the show breeders would breed from.

I was quite surprised that at one time(may not be the same now as I haven't checked for ages)were very inbred on certain of their home bred stud dogs, one I know produced over 60 litters up to the age of 5 & this was before the HD scoring scheme was brought in(by show GSD breeders via the GSD League & Club of GB !!!!!Shock horror) initially for GSDs & subsequently accepted by the KC & made available to everyone(just the same as the previous scheme for HD BTW-fancy GSD show breeders being responsible for bringing a HD scheme !! the thought must really surprise those who think all the tests came via the BVA & KC) If memory serves me right he wasn't HD screened at all as no dogs were back then.

The GDBA submit an awful lot of dogs registrations so must be breeding many litters(puppies show up in the BRS of course as Guidewell dogs & I believe the GDBA are not charged for this by the KC-they certainly weren't at one stage)

And it's not just individuals who are shutting their eyes and stuffing fingers in their ears. Whole clubs too:


“Before the AGM last Sunday, Simon Swift, Cardiologist, gave a talk to members to inform us of the present situation, current research and to update us on the new BVA/KC heart testing scheme that involves a number of breeds including cavaliers.

His talk was attended by about 25 members, including the committee, out of a current total UK membership of 1050. At the end of his talk Simon had difficulty in leaving the room for the throng of other members waiting outside for the AGM, chatting and drinking coffee, whiling away the time until his talk was over. So much for breeders’ interest in, and concern for heart problems within the breed. The AGM then followed, attended by 63 members.

The agenda contained a proposal from the committee that the Code of Ethics should include the recommended breeding guidelines for SM. These are not mandatory rules, merely recommendations, and would have been in line with Hearts and Eyes breeding guidelines, which have been in place for some years. These proposals seemed to me to be innocuous and reasonable. However, the proposal was substantially defeated by the meeting. This was a triumph by the members present over neurologists and geneticists, and of course, over the committee. It would seem that cavalier club members continue to progress, like lemmings, towards mandatory breeding regulations that will surely come, as surely as night follows day.

There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals. I have tried my utmost to defend and support the breed and the club. This weekend was proof, if proof is needed, that there is no point in deluding myself, or others, that self-regulation is possible.”

Mrs Lesley Jupp, Chairman of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club of the UK, 24 March 2009

Some Dalmatian people don't want the crosses registered because the uric acid problem they have can be 'controlled' when it should be eradicated. A member of The Standard Poodle Club put in a motion for hip scoring to no longer be a requirement in the clubs code of ethics, fortunately it was rejected but these things just go to show that health isn't always top priority for show breeders.
Becky

1) You have absolutely no idea of my thoughts on Guide Dogs breeding practices...my thoughts are totally irrelevant to this,I am picking you up on a sweeping statement you made comparing Guide Dogs to show dogs.

2) Guide dogs actually bring in a great deal of outside bred dogs. Actually it is important to know about them and their hip scores in order to back up your sweeping statement. Whether outside bred or not they are still Guide dogs breeding stock. I would love to know where you think there is just an occasional outcross to a stud dog. They buy in outside bred stud dogs too. How do I know? I puppy walked one that was down as a potential stud dog. In actual fact all but one of the litter (outside bred) failed...largely temperament issues, except my pup who is working still. He was a potential stud dog. I know of lots of others.
Yes, Guide Dogs stock are registered as Guidewell...there is no great secret in that.
You are not taking into account the dogs that are outside bred though....plus you are basing you sweeping generalisation on Guide Dogs breeding stock only. Working Guide Dogs are not routinely health tested so as I thought it would be impossible for you to back up what you said,no great surprise but I thought you had information I was not aware of.

3) So..your knowledge of Guide dogs bred dogs is based on a child's tv programme and one dog that had already been rejected.Hmmm.
Suffice to say I had the pleasure of spending the day with a potential brood bitch (actually bred by Guide Dogs and waiting for hip scores)only yesterday. Her temperament around my dogs was superb. She waited for my son on the school yard and was accosted by several children...again superb temperament. She walked fantastically on the lead and is just stunning. That was just yesterday, I could go on at greater length about the temperaments of other Guide Dogs I have met and had hands on experience of...but I won't.

4) You have no idea of what I think of show breeders etc so why make yet another sweeping statement that you can't back up?
So...tell me what hip scores are acceptable to Guide Dogs that are not acceptable to show Lab or GSD breeders? Specifics...not sweeping generalisations preferably. Give me statistics.

5) Each year 1000 dogs are puppy walked in the UK ( or around and about that figure) as each year that many new dogs are needed...actually possibly more than that are needed but there are not enough puppy walkers etc out there to do more. There is more demand than supply and people are often waiting for a Guide Dog for a very long time. So yes...there are lots of pups bred and brought up and cared for by Guide Dogs every year. Not sure what your problem is with that.


I took objection to your sweeping statement and asked you to back it up statistcally. You haven't done that and obviously can't....given most working dogs don't have their hips scored.

So which GSD boards are you a member of?