In America all pups are neutered before leaving rescue centres , I believe ?

The same is true here.

I recently went on a 'behind the scenes' tour of the local Dog's Trust premises. They assured us that they ALWAYS spay before rehoming. Dogs Trust are also quite insistent that there is no evidence to suggest that spaying as early as 8 weeks or so will do any harm to a dog.

It is a biological fact that testosterone is key to the timeous closure of the growth plates in the long bones(ie femur, tibia, fibia)so removing the source(ie the reproductive organs)before maturity does affect the natural growth of both dogs & bitches

I've already put a link on this thread to one of many studies into the effects of prepuberty neutering, they all say basically the same thing-ie prepuberty neutered dogs & bitches grow taller & stay more immature through out their lives. There are also papers/articles linking prepuberty neutering to other health problems.

Bitches who have had a total hysterectomy cannot have false pregnancies, spaying is the usual surgical option for bitches who have problems with false pregnancies-which are hormonal-remove the womb & ovaries & the hormones are also removed. It doesn't matter when the bitch is spayed-it is a biological fact no ovaries & womb-no false pregnancies. So how the bitch you referred to as having problems with false pregnancies after being spayed post puberty-obviously wasn't completely spayed & some ovary tissue left(this is usually the case in bitches spayed prepuberty according to my vet-who has 30 + years of veterinary experience with small animal)BTW false pregnancies are completely normal in entire bitches-in the wild the non breeding bitches often suckle the Alpha bitches pups whilst she hunts-it is a"throw-back"to the domestic dog's wild ancestors.

As for spaying as a contraceptive-I've had entire dogs & bitches living together for over 40 years & never had an"accidental"litter yet. Educating irresponsible owners is a far better way than carrying out major surgery on puppies from 8 weeks upwards(as the RSPCA now do)

Why should your boy stray or become aggressive ? These are nothing to do with the dog being entire-castrated dogs can & do mate bitches & can & do fight-infact one of the most aggressive dogs I have ever met was castrated @ 12 weeks of age. The only two things that castrating a dog will guarantee is that the dog will never get testicular cancer(no testes-no T cancer obviously)& eventually the dog will be infertile-however there is no actual period of time after which vets can guarantee that the dog will be sterile-only a sperm count can confirm this.

You've posted a link to an article that draws different conclusions to most vets and animal health professionals from available studies and evidence. It's nothing new - just a different spin on the studies that have already been carefully reviewed by very many groups that care about the health of our pets. As I said, I can see that those involved in showing and sport might have different agendas to pet owners. Litterally thousands upon thousands of animals are spayed before their first season without problem. Mine is one of them.

I didn't say that a speyed bitch had problems with phantom pregnancies. Use some common sense - had she been spayed before her first season she would have avoided the very serious problems caused by a phantom pregnancy.

Very many people will tell you that their unneutered dogs can roam looking for bitches on heat. They can also be prone to fighting over bitches on heat. Very many people will tell you that neutering put a stop to the problem. I have in fact seen the positive change in a couple of dogs after neutering with my own eyes. *IF* my dog starts to roam in search of bitches on heat, or gets into fights over the fairer sex we'll consider getting him speyed early.

Out of interest, what steps do you take to avoid it?

My dogs run off-lead in the park for a couple hours every day with a whole bunch of other dogs. I would consider regular interruption to this to be detremental to their health and happiness. Yet I can't see any way that you could allow a bitch on heat to have this kind of freedom. And whilst you wouldn't be saddled with the pups, it would be hard to guarantee that your dog didn't find himself an unspeyed bitch.

You cannot"spay"a dog-Spaying is to sterilize a female via ovariohysterectomy.

If a dog strays it is because the owner allows the dog to leave their premises & they are very very irresponsible. Why would a dog fight another over an inseason bitch-because it is out unaccompanied ? Again an irresponsible owner.

Very many people will tell you that neutering instantly cures the above-who are these people ? other pet owners ? Sorry unless you castrate virtually @ birth, male dogs have testosterone in their bodies & it doesn't disappear at the same time the testes do(as one bitch owner has found on another forum-her bitch in whelp to her recently castrated puppy !)

You did write that a bitch spayed after 2/3 seasons has had terrible problems with false pregnancies-this could only have happened if the vet messed up the spay & in my vet's experience this is far more common in bitches that are spayed prepuberty

As for your own dog-he won't stray if you don't allow him to & train him to be obedient.

I have had several stud dogs & none have gone off straying after in season bitches. My property is dog proofed & despite other owners allowing their entire dogs & bitches to roam(well I do live in the country)mine have never offered to join them. Even my dogs that have never been used @ stud don't roam after bitches & they do not fight over inseason bitches either(don't forget I do have an entire bitch at the moment)

My three year old BC has had the Suprelorin implant & it does work far quicker that surgical castration. I did this to ensure he would stop follwing my bitch everywhere(especially as she has silent seasons)& he now treats her as one of the "boys". I will not be having him castrated as I may(hip scoring etc permitting)wish to use him at stud in the future.

I will be having Jessie spayed for her sake-she has silent seasons & when I receive her hip score I am expecting a result higher that I would breed from which means I can spay without her having the litter I was planning(& for which I actually have 6 puppies booked from !).

I'm not anti neutering just anti neutering too early as a contraceptive

For those that aren't aware that phantom pregnancies don't occur in speyed bitches I'd like to add that the phantom pregnancies occured BEFORE the bitch in question was speyed. To spell it out even more clearly for those slow on the uptake , my point is that avoidance of phantom pregnancies is another important consideration for me when choosing when to spey. This particular little bitch was unlucky to suffer so badly, but it's not something I'd want to risk putting any dog through.

JodeeUK, it seems to me that the steps taht you are required to take to avoid unwanted pregnancies aren't acceptable to me. I want my dogs to run free and play with other dogs off-lead. I've seen too many dogs loose otherwise perfect recall in the presence of an unspeyed bitch. And you simply can't take an unspeyed bitch out to play off-lead. That is just not an acceptable life for my dogs.

On the other hand, having bones 1mm longer than they should be is quite acceptable as it has not been found to lead to health problems.

Out of interest, what do you do with your dogs? i.e do you breed, show, involve them in sports....or are they simply pets?

Hasn't it really Hm again that is not the experience my Vet has(the practice do not neuter before puberty except for medical grounds & for a very young bitch to have a phantom on efr first, second or third season is very very rare)

What you can never let an unspayed bitch off lead ever ????? That is a load of b*ll*cks. For the three weeks a bitch is in season no she shouldn't be off lead, but to spay just because you want her to be able to run free ???? Sorry have you ever owned an entire mature bitch ? Obviously not. I have & did obedience, sheepdog trials & working trials with them & let them off lead(when not in season)witout all the dogs in the area mobbing them & trying to mate them.

As for the only thing about early neutering being extra growth, it is actually linked to early onset of Arthritis in the joints because the growth plates haven't closed properly-one of my stud dogs puppies had to be castrated @ 7 1/2 weeks(he had a testicular hernia & his testes became gangreous), he was a GSD who grew to 32" at the shoulder(the only one of my dog's offspring to be oversized-should have been 26")& had arthritis diagnosed @ 3 years by an orthopedic specialist who sees many prepuberty neutered dogs with similar early onset-his advice is not to neuter before puberty-as someone who sees 1,000s of such dogs a year I would rather take his advice than that from a GP vet who wants an early neuter to be the norm

As for my dogs-firstly they are my companions(Rjj is trained to assist me-& was trained to do so by me), in the past I have had dogs(& bitches)that I have shown, done Obedience/Working Trials/Schutzhund/Search & Rescue/Sheepdog Trials/PAT visiting/Stage & Film appearances. Some have been bred from, but most have not & all have been health tested with all the tests available at the time that I had them. I currently train my dogs for Obedience competition, but only for their & my enjoyment.

Have you ever had a entire mature dog or bitch or do you consider that all dogs should be neutered before puberty, thus ensuring in a generation there would be no more dogs ? TBH it does read that this is where you are coming from

I obviously meant an unspeyed bitch on heat. Having to keep my dog on lead for three weeks twice a year is simply not acceptable to me. Why make a dog suffer unnecesarily? And believe me it would lead to considerable suffering if my little girl was deprived of her daily off-lead fun sessions. It's not the only reason that I choose to spay before the first season - if you've been reading you'd realise that it's just one of many.

I don't think I've ever said anything about my dog necessarily being neutered before puberty - let alone all dogs. I'll repeat what I said ealier. There are no real health benefits to neutering a dog early so I'd probably wait until he's fully mature - UNLESS we start to have problems with him wandering off in search of bitches in heat or getting into fights with other dogs. Although as you pointed out - neutering won't fix these problems overnight so perhaps you have persuaded me that there's good reason to get in early and routinely neuter before the hormones kick in and the dog starts getting randy I've also been warned by a lady that's owned multiple Beagles for years that there's a strong liklihood that the little boy will start to get possesive of his big sister if he's left unneutered - and that this can often lead to fights. She says that neutering has always put a stop to that in her dogs. And she breeds Beagles so has plenty of experience of entire dogs too!

In this thread I've talked about the choices I make for my dogs and tried to explain my decisions. You've clearly found a vet that goes along with your interpretation of the research. I have to say that yours isn't a widely accepted interpretation but it's your choice and what you do with your dogs is really no one's business. I fail to see why it should bother you that I (and many others) prefer to take the advice of vets that have a very different interpretation.

I didn't "find"my vet I have been with the same practice for the whole time I have owned dogs i.e. 50 years, I haven't had to search for a vet who agrees with me, the practice as always done neutering after puberty(except for medical reasons obviously). My vet asn't been influenced wit prepuberty neutering which has come from the USA.

I do not blindly accept anything that vets tell me(especially regarding vaccinations)& the practice I use accept this. I don't try to get people not to vaccinate their dogs/cats, but I do point out both sides of the vaccinations.

As too a bitch missing her"fun"for three weeks & being walked on a lead-you are anthromorphizing dogs-my bitches in season were not walked off my property & never left alone with a male dog at anytime. They were never "depressed"by not being able to break out & get mated & have puppies nor did they become"upset"because they were not exercised in public-dogs do not have the human feelings you attribute to them. The truth is you would miss being able to allow your dog/bitch to run free 365 days a year & of course you don't have to be concerned about seasons. You, like so many dog owners & vets etc, are using neutering as a means of contraception & in many cases as a replacement for responsible dog ownership.

As I have already written I am not anti neutering I am anti prepuberty neutering because of the physical & mental effects(as in perpetually immature dogs)it has on the animal.
Oh please "the little boy"will start to get possessive of "his big sister" if he is left unneutered" ? Your puppy could still get possessive over your older bitch even if he is castrated & in fact he could become the object of attention of any entire males he meets-in dogs lack of testosterone can be interpreted by other dogs as him being a female ! BTW he will not know if she is related to him or not-litter mates do recognize each other via smell-but not full siblings