like his long leaded 'pops' that are advised as his introduction to these collars!

I am trying hard not to argue with idiots---so no I am not discussing anything with you---you are a waste of space IMO---go and fawn round your puppetmaster.

rune

Oh gosh Adam - really????

Its not a risk I am willing to take. I would rather be fair to the animal!!!

.....but yes - in the same way that you tell me it does not hurt because of the reaction you see from dogs - I will say it does because they hurt me!

It comes down to the fact you are playing with painful tools - and you do not seem to mind that they can inflict pain.

Then again, some people's "confident" "calm behaviour" response to being attacked might be another's "learnt helplessness" as psychologists like to call it?
Similar to wife-beaters having such non-agressive calm wifes.

I once had a truely confident dog, an enormous muscle bound lab, never agressive, never attacked or got attacked, just incredibly good body language that other dogs picked up on and seemed to make them be on their best behaviour.

Interesting - thanks for taking the time to post it up. So, am I correct that the prong collar, far from exerting pressure all around the neck, the pressure is still concentrated at the front of the neck when the dog pulls?

From an applied mathematics point of view (I never thought it would come in handy):

If the dog is static, and tension applied very slowly, the tension would be relatively evenly distributed about the whole collar. (To be precise, there would be a small additional pressure on the front of the neck due to the resolved pull of the weight of the lead.)

If a dog is trying to charge forward, and the person isn't:
There are large, equal and opposite, forces at each end of the lead - the person pulling on to the lead for dear life at one end, the dog pulling in the other direction.
To explain the forces here without diagrams, an approximate model is just to imagine a square necked dog wearing a normal leather dog collar, but pulling hard against the lead:

There is actually a small gap at the back of the dogs neck where the leather collar is pulled towards the owner and away from contact with the dog - if the dog and collar aren't even touching, none of the dog's pull is coming from there.

At the sides of the neck, the collar is pulled tight by tension, but as the sides are at right angles to the pull force coming from the owner, the sides can't contribute effectively to the dog's pull against the owner.
Think of trying to jump start a car if you had to (a) pull not push, and (b) were only allowed to touch the drivers side window glass... if the surface being touched is sideways on to the direction you want to apply the force, the only force you can apply is through friction, and there isn't much of that.
In the case of prongs, they would stick into the dogs skin, so have some grip, but a dog's skin is mobile and can move about, so even then not much force could be transferred. There's not many bones in the neck region for prongs to get a really good grip on.

So by a process of elimination, virtually all the dog pull force opposing the owner's pull force has to be working against the front of the dogs neck. It's like when you open a fridge door, your fingers loop around and have to pull at the back of the handle, i.e. that bit that is facing away from you.

Unfortunately, on the dog, the bit facing away from you is the throat, which is why even normal collars yanked really hard can cause throat damage... but with the added pressure concentration of the prongs - I hate to think of it!
I certainly wouldn't want to charge into someone holding a pitchfork up against my larynx.

thats not CC, thats praising the fear....... jeez get your hands off!!!!!

not Counter conditioning, but classical conditioning.

you need to be careful how you do that...tis a good idea if you are generally chatting away perkily petting the dog, but many people end up reassuring the dog, reinforcing its fear.

it comes down to timing....at the very earliest sign, the very first body langauge signal, you can distract your dog from its increasing focus by chatting, singing, fussing, playing, giving treats, etc.

if the dog is already reached its fear pinnacle, i think you are probably best of walking away, as any attention at that stage is risky.

its not even worht thinking in terms of conditioning theory at all, its probably better to think in terms of cognitive emotional connections.....if you can teach the dog to get used to choosing to come to you for a fuss, treat, game, or to sniff the ground, whatever, as soon as it sees the scary thing, then thats brill.
That's the dog course correcting itself.

dunno how this evolved from prong collar chats, but i like this bit, cant be assed reading another hundred pages of the same old same old.

Thank you for the further explanation. Interesting stuff

Exactly.

Wys
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