Just as a by the by, it has been found that the original hen pecking order (hierarchy) was also incorrect.

They have found that hens learn by association or by trial and error learning, what they can do in context with other individual hens.

So there's no "pecking order" as we used to think

Wys
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That's lovely of you, thankyou Gnasher

I understand, but I'd also say that that's what owners who don't follow the theory also do

Oops sorry didn't include it all in the quote, but I agree ignoring the dog is appalling and also feel very sorry for the wolf crosses who are used as guard dogs or something and not given the time they very clearly need.

I get you, and it would be lovely to see the photo of Tai However, (there is always a "however", isn't there ) I'd say all of the above is just being a parent or guardian, I've mentioned why in my post (363) above

Wys
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Well, I definitely don't support or agree with the Lamark, so I must have explained myself very badly then. I'll have to go back and see what I said for you to make that libellous accusation !! Only joking, but I will go back and see.

I TOTALLY disagree with the fact that wolf crosses are unstable ! It is the way they are being raised/handled that can cause unpredictable behaviour. They HAVE to not only feel, but actually be, part of the human pack ... they HAVE to be. With an ordinary dog, this is of course IMO extremely desirable, but it is not absolutely essential. You cannot take a high% wolf cross, stick it in a back yard ... however huge that is ... and expect him to 1) be happy 2) be well balanced, and 3) be stable.

On the negative side, there are of course bad apples in every barrel. Not every single wolf cross in the whole world is going to be well balanced, whatever the upbringing, just as with some dogs. We have a saying in the UK, and possibly you do in the States "there are no bad dogs, only bad owners".

One thing I will comment on though ... in the States and Europe, because they are not illegal (they are in some of your States, I know), there tends to be a much higher proportion of high % wolf dogs. I would never advocate anyone having a high % who didn't know what they were doing. Anything less than an F4 would be unmanageable for most people. So rather than blame the animals themselves, I think the fault virtually always lies with the owners.

Wolf crosses are no more "unstable" than any dog, or unpredictable, but for sure they are very different. I think this is where so many people trip up.

Guys : OH is freaking ! It'll all have to wait until lunchtime when HWMBO (OH) permits me to play !!

I should tell him to hoof off, but I just can't stand the rows. You see, I'm not such a good alpha after all !!

Wys : I really can't remember now the wy's and wherefore's, it's a long time ago. OH is the clever one, and not me, and he does all the heavy scientific research, it is way above my head TBH. But he has kept up with the latest research. I can't ask him what at the moment, because we are knee deep in a legal case and HWMBO Does Not Want To Be Disturbed ! In good time, I will be able to talk to him, but he is like a man possessed at the moment !

I may be a fan of CM, but i am not a blind devotee. There are some aspects of his rehabilitation techniques that I am not happy with. I hadn't before of the raised paw I must say, but my Tai has been trained to Give Paw in his previous life, and I am trying to train him out of it because he has a horrible habit of raking you with his very long and very sharp claws, sometimes drawing blood. He could get a child's eye one day, but I am having difficulty in getting him to stop doing it.

How did I turn Hal from a grumpy old git into a reasonably obedient grumpy old git with a fairly good recall? Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin :

I won't go over again all the early years, as I've done that already. I will tell you what happened from Day 1 of the CM treatment.

First of all, I thought I would start with the chickens. He had already killed 5 of our neighbour's chickens over the years when they had escaped from the garden into the field. So I thought in for a penny, in for a pound, if he kills one more, it couldn't make it much worse, so I walked into the Lion's Den with Hal off lead. The chickens were luckily in the garden, so walked Hal up and down the gateway and the hedgerow a few times. The chickens were going mad of course, squawking, and Hal was immediately into prey mode. As soon as this happened, I shouted "oi" as loudly as I could, and he immediately stopped his stalking and looked over his shoulder at me. Whilst I had good eye contact, I raised my finger and said "no, stay". He walked towards me, I told him to sit. He did so and I immediately praised him. I then walked towards the gate telling him to "heel" and he went all stalky again, as I knew he would. I instantly did a CM "ah ah" and he paused to look at me, then started slinking again. This provoked a "bite" from me, a gentle but firm prod of a "v sign" shape made by my two fingers, with a sharp "no". He sat and looked down at the ground. I praised him. We repeated this procedure a few times, from various distances until I could walk up and down the set aside past the chickens' garden with Hal totally ignoring them, looking to me for praise ! And this from a dog with the wolf aloofness and the total lack of desire to please ! Here he was WANTING to please me. I'm onto something here, thought I. Over the next few days and weeks we met the chickens out on the set aside, and from memory, I cannot recall Hal ever chasing them again. As soon as he looked at them, a sharp "ah ah" would bring him back on track, and he certainly never ever killed another chicken. I remember one occasion biking past them with Hal trotting faithfully by my side, I sped up and he broke into a canter, following me like a good boy.

His recall was crap, so this was my next challenge, but to my surprise, the first time I called him back to heel, he came ! Albeit, rather meanderingly, pausing to sniff here and there, but I could see that he was keeping a watchful eye on me, so I let this go, thinking you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ! Sometimes he did get side tracked and the contact was broken and he would totally ignore me, and i had to resort to my old technique of lobbing a clod of earth in his direction to bring him to heel ! Not very CM, but it worked ! The implied threat of physical violence registered in the old git's brain enough to sharpen him up without doing any harm

The time spent with the chickens, off lead, never on the lead, seemed to lift the veil over his eyes. "Oh blimey, they now how to talk to me at last. I had better do what they say now they know what they are doing !!"

I've got to go again, OH is screaming about some missing emails or something ! Honestly, he is SO unreasonable sometimes !!

That was really interesting reading. Thank you! Not that mine would ever go near a chicken - the chicken would be bigger

I really like a lot of what CM does and your experience shows that he has a lot to offer some owners and their dogs

I remember a couple of times he's done this. One of the problems with this view is the tendency to see any behavior as a play for dominance. In the case you mention, a universally agreed sign of appeasement is read as dominance by Millan. When I saw that, I shook my head and wondered how NG could allow him on their channel specially with all their wolf specials.

Where is the HEAD SHAKING FACEPALM smiley?

Another great post Wys ! Just a note about wolf crosses though, and wolves too, they make absolutely crap guard dogs ! So do huskies and mals, interestingly - both breeds are recent wolf crosses. However, the GSD, another recent wolf cross, makes an excellent guard dog, inherited from the shepherd dog that went into the creation of the breed.

I have to say, I agree about the paw waving. I do not recall either of these two incidents, but I am wondering whether you are being fair.

I have already said that Tai "Gives Paw". There is a difference between giving paw, and smacking with the paw. Tai used to do this "Demand Paw" where he would sit in front of you and then smack you with his paw and rake downwards at the same time. This is excruciatingly painful and the way he used to perform it was definitely a "demand", in other words being unbalanced. Now, he still gives paw in the pub for the landlord to give him a chew, but he has stopped this smack and rake action. I haven't seen the two incidents that you mention, so I can't say whether Cesar was right or wrong, I will have to leave it up to you to tell me what sort of Give Paw it was !!