What do water deer and grey squirrels have to do with the use of e-collars?

no it doesnt. dogs, like humans, and any species, can block pain sensation thru adrenalin.

that's why lou castle tells us collars need up to 35 settings, despite, as he claims, you mainly only need the first few low stim settings.
due to collies etc in high drive and running thru the sensation.
therefore your statement indicates a lack of knowledge of e collars, it would seem.

There are plenty of instances of people in the states who use the invisible fence (a e collar system that 'contains' the dog in the garden) where the dogs have been totaly trained to the collar and for months or years are fine in the garden, then something, either a greater pray, or a bigger fright, causes the dogs to bolt from the garden, ignoring the shock, and they are then too frightened to return to the garden as they know they will get shocked
If the drive is great enough the dogs WILL ignore the shock

as I have said plenty of times, Mia, to get to a field of sheep wriggled under 3 electrc fences getting shocked each time, but the drive to get to the sheep was greater than the shock
She was aware of the shock and when she decided t come back she wouldnt come near the fence

and if anyone has been zapped by on of those then they will know it is not a tickle
so in full on prey drive the collar setting would have to be enough to knock the dog off its feet

Whats important is conditioning the dog to respond to the stim in the way you want.

So with the collie we spent the first session just working on recall with the collar, teaching her that whenever she felt the stim she could turn it off by turning twards us.

2nd session just the same but around sheep, initially on long line then off lead.

3rd session off lead on the moors with sheep appearing out of bushes ect and triggering the prey drive with the element of sudden appearance.

Note first and 2nd session was actually two sessions run together.

As long as you do this you will find the dog realises it has to come back, theres no element of blasting through like an e fence (usually at the point the dog feels the fence he's past the point of turning anyway) because you just hold the button down until the dog turns back! In some cases its actually bets to let the dog really go for it to show the dog no matter how high on the chase/kill he is he has to come back.

Adam

.....and it gets worse

OMG - you actually hold the button down - I think you need reporting to the RSPCA!!!


And any dog trainer knows you dont run two sessions along with each otehr, as the owners need to work on what you've just told them - GOD! However if they were following your advice - poor dog!

You may as well, pack your bags and run away with your tail between your legs - cos you arent changing anyones minds and you're actually making yourself out to be a mindless moron who knows nothing about dogs or training unless it's been written on the back of an E-collar instriction manuel!!

Oh and before I forget - the dog doesnt learn recall that way it just knows that you are the one to stop the pain surging through it's body and to come near you is to turn it off - it doesnt want to come back to you! I dont see any tails wagging on dogs with e - collars on or ones that have had e-collars used on them.

What do you mean by this? You kept the 'stim' constant until she did what you wanted?

Im sorry but this thread makes me sick. So many better methods of training.

Basically you call, press, guide the dog towards you and stop pressing.

You can also use a tap tap method on the button instead of the pressing, the effects are similar.

At most the dog will experience discomfort for 1-1.5 secs. Unlike the extended frustration/discomfort that luring with a treat creates.

Adam

You know bob all about dog language and mentality so how would you know that a treat causes discomfort and frustration?

Have you put an e-collar on yourself? and found what discomfort and frustration this causes?