Just like to add - the amount of times I've gone crying to Wysiwyg and Patch saying 'someone's told me I have to be dominant! Am I wrong?!' is ridiculous!!

I'm now working on being 'dominant' with people who tell me I am doing things wrong!!

You just need to be comfortable in the belief that you are doing what's right for your dog, that way no-one can sway you!
Becky

It's when so called experts tell me otherwise!

I agree with the idea that actually - dogs are pretty simple and will repeat what they find rewarding.

Someone was showing me the other day how to be forceful with your dog (she has a rottie who she has to be dominant with apparently) and was explaining that if I want the dog to back up and stay there instead of walking past me again, I have to puff my chest out, maintain eye contact and be assertive. The fact is, she's had to do this several times and block her rottie every time he's tried to come back out so now he's learnt that 'when mum pushes her chest out and walks at me like that - I stay where she puts me til she says otherwise' it's nothing about dominance! He just knows it doesn't work to try and get out again!
If you have a dog like a rottie or dally which are usually pretty persistent, you can use that type of training because you get enough loser trials in to actually make an impression but it doesn't mean they're dominant!

If you ever met T you'd laugh your socks off at the idea that she's dominant!

I know weve all gone over the idea that theories sell books but I really do recommend Barry Eatons 'Dominance - Fact or Fiction?' book because its a real insight. Mainly because it clears a lot of things up about how wolf packs interact. This is where the dominance idea comes from and only by realising the way in which wolf packs interact can you truly see that everything is misinterpreted. A dog isnt a wolf. Its come a long way from being a wolf.

Furthermore, we allow a variety of animals into our homes. Cats, gerbils, birds, horses (though maybe ot in the house!)... how many of these do you deny access to furnishings, pin on their back if they are naughty or deny attention to if they ask? And if you did would you really expect them to love you?

My dad is trying to train his cocker spaniel using dominance, something i disagree with, and its not working in the slightest. The only way you can train a breed like that is to burn his energy and interact with him. By putting him in a cage, stopping him from sniffing things and playing or running around he is simply inhibiting his natural energy. Is the dog being dominant because he was bred to be energetic and ask to play? I doubt it very much. In fact he is the soppiest dog I ever met.

I knew this topic would get you all going!! Bit of healthy debate/frustrated shouting never hurt anyone... right? :S

I own rottweilers {nuff said} yes dominace can play its part, but consistent training methods, meaning no means no every time, and if your dog doesnt take the telling yes get off your butt and back it up, but dominance is to an extent ooozzzing calm, confident leadership, I recently done a one on one with benzmum, who I would love to put some input into this, im sure she would agree my leadership is not one of violence more ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,somit else not sure how to describe it, lol

How would I be able to walk amongst my 12 dog's if they didnt think I was the more dominant one? I ignore the need for attention and give it as I want not them demanding, I can break up a fight without getting bitten, I can take bones, food and treats away from my dogs, without getting bitten, I can do anything with them, would they do it for me if they didnt think I was the gaffa, the dominant one,
my children can do certain thing's for certain dog's but the oldest one no he will growl at them but never at me why is this? They feed him for me and all the rest when my RA plays up but they can't do with him what I can why? If this is'nt dominace please explain because I might be having a thick few year's beliveing im more dominant.
I think humans have to much time to rationalise, people think, dogs think also but human is the more intellegent (well supposed to be.)so why is this that some think dominace, some think I just want to be there friend and let them do as they please?
Did all dog's not originate from the wolf who has pack hirarchy. Do you think 12 dogs live together and when i'm not there they run roit, because there is leaders in my dog pack, and underdog's, we've had problem's in the past were certain bitches wouldn't mate and as soon as we moved the dominant bitch they went on to have a litter.
So yes I believe in dominance.

Dominance? Not sure if it is actual dominance or gaining the dogs trust and respect. The dog has to be confident that you are confident (imo) As Shona said, I recently worked with her and Ben, and the change in handling was amazing. Shona was confident and when Ben had to do something he was rewarded every time he did what was expected with happy kind words and treat, praise or attention (or all of the above!) And when he didnt do what was asked he was firmly told he was in the wrong (no violence) tone of voice and firm handling.

You would not believe the difference.

It was like Shone exuded (sp) confidence from the outset so Ben trusted her - though he himself lacks confidence so on occassion given the opportunity would have run back to me, however Shona knew how to handle this with encouragement and praise.

Having met with and spoken to a few people now I firmly believe that my lack of confidence has exasperated(sp) Bens problems and he is unsure wether he has to solve any probs or wether I will be able to, and he himself is underconfident so freaks in case he lets me down.

Not sure if that comes down to me learning to be "dominant", but I think to a degree it does. But Dominance does not equal violence. imo it equals confidence

Its almost like outsmarting them and playing them at their own game.

Hope that makes sense?

Packs and dominance exists between dogs that are KEPT in groups and so yes there will be some level of heirarchy in your 'pack' but your dogs arent thick. They know your not a dog. You cannot move your eyes and body in a way a dominant or alpha dog does. And that is what its all about. Its not about pinning them its not about yelling at them. Its about you being their provider, their companion and their trainer. An alpha wolf does not dominate its pack by attacking them or by being physically higher up than them. They dont even have priority when eating - the pack eat as just that, a pack.

Your dogs are respectful of you, they understand that you are not there to cause them harm or take sides and I would say that this is why you can do anything with them. You are calm with them and teach them how to live without conflict.

I have studied a group of fox hounds - as you will all know, these dogs are kept in kennels and effectively 'hunt' as a pack. They have pack structures within the dogs. When we put a group of humans in amongst them, they did as that human said. Regardless of who it was. Whether they were telling them to sit and stay or to leave a bone. You cant tell me that these dogs thought that ALL humans are 'alphas' because thats not how it works!

Another point ii wanted to make was that stray dogs rarely form packs. In Turkey I saw hundreds of strays on the streets... none of them were in a natural pack structure. So if these animals can exist without pack structure in the wild, why do they need it in the home? They are social yes... moody and want to get their way yes... fight for dominance? no.

Least thats my views.

Yes that's right, but Dominance shows when the dog is getting a most undesirable result EVERY time, and STILL doing the thing IT wants to do, because it wants YOU to "give in" and give a different result to the one it keeps getting if that makes sense

Most dogs repeat things that get the "desired" result. A dominant dog repeats things just to get YOU to do something different, to get a different result.

As I said, it's very difficult to explain, and there's nothing aggressive about it either, they have a very crafty way of doing things, very calmly, so you have to be the same with them. Like I said before, it's not a case of training it's a case more of changing their mind, which training can help with, but they wont be bribed