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Jenny
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27-11-2013, 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by Imana-Banana View Post
Jenny, If you listen to the webinar Malka put on this thread it will tell you how to work out the protein level of wet food, it's too long for me to explain on here using my phone
I'll try and find time to have a listen later . All I do know is that I asked my son (nutritionist) what the protein levels were in the Nature Diet bumph and it was 10% and not the 38%. We all know that wet food is made up of mostly water and that is why far more quantity of wet food has to be fed than dry kibble.

I found this which might be of interest to you:
***************
This is false. Dogs are carnivores, not omnivores. Dogs ARE very adaptable, but just because they can survive on an omnivorous diet does not mean it is the best diet for them. The assumption that dogs are natural omnivores remains to be proven, whereas the truth about dogs being natural carnivores is very well-supported by the evidence available to us.

1.) Dentition

Look into your dog or cat's mouth. Those huge impressive teeth (or tiny needle sharp teeth) are designed for grabbing, ripping, tearing, shredding, and shearing meat (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 258.). They are not equipped with large flat molars for grinding up plant matter. Their molars are pointed and situated in a scissors bite (along with the rest of their teeth) that powerfully disposes of meat, bone, and hide. Carnivores are equipped with a peculiar set of teeth that includes the presence of carnassial teeth: the fourth upper premolar and first lower molar.

Contrast this with your own teeth or the teeth of a black bear. A black bear is a true omnivore, as are we. We have nice, large, flat molars that can grind up veggies. Black bears, while having impressive canine teeth, also have large flat molars in the back of their mouth to assist in grinding up plant matter. Dogs and most canids lack these kinds of molars. Why? Because they don't eat plant matter. Teeth are highly specialized and are structured specifically for the diet the animal eats, and the difference between a bear's teeth and a dog's teeth (both species are in Order Carnivora) demonstrates how this can be (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pgs 260.). To see a visual comparison of the teeth of a dog to the teeth of a black bear, please click here. One can logically ask: If a dog (or cat or ferret) has the dentition of a carnivorous animal, why do we feed it pelleted, grain-based food?

2.) Musculature and external anatomy

Dogs (and cats) are equipped with powerful jaw muscles and neck muscles that assist in pulling down prey and chewing meat, bone, and hide. Their jaws hinge open widely, allowing them to gulp large chunks of meat and bone. Their skulls are heavy, and are shaped to prevent lateral movement of the lower jaw when captured prey struggles (the mandibular fossa is deep and C-shaped); this shape permits only an up-and-down crushing motion, whereas herbivores and omnivores have flatter mandibular fossa that allows for the lateral motion necessary to grind plant matter (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pgs 258-259.). Consider this quote from the previously-cited Mammology text:
"Canids, felids, and mustelids subsist mainly on freshly killed prey. These families show correspondingly greater development in 'tooth and claw'; they also have greater carnassial development and cursorial locomotion." (pg 260)

This translates to a simple fact: everything about a dog or cat's body design says they were designed for a carnivorous, hunting lifestyle geared toward killing prey. However, humans have done some major tinkering with this body design (resulting in varying sizes and conformations), but we have done nothing to change the internal anatomy and physiology of our carnivorous canines.

3.) Internal anatomy and physiology

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose,
Source:
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.ht...
*******************
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Imana-Banana
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27-11-2013, 10:08 AM
Hi Jenny, sorry if that was a bit short yesterday, was on my phone and it drives me nuts with the auto spell thingy!!

Thanks for the above post, always love reading stuff like that.

Here is the equation for protein, please excuse the way it's worded I found it on goggle

"Compare protein in Wet and Dried dog foods

1.Protein can only be measured when the moisture is removed. It does not matter if it is raw, canned or cooked to measure protein the moisture needs to be removed.

2.Raw foods like chicken, lamb, fish and so on have around 80% moisture. This moisture needs to be removed in order to measure protein.

3. Canned dog food or pouches contain between 70-80% moisture.

The true protein level of these products is not a stated on the packaging. The protein
value stated on these products is for the whole product including the moisture.
Foods which are wet therefore need to have the high levels of water ( moisture)
removed prior to getting an accurate reading of the protein and fat . Similarly pet food companies who used supposed 'fresh' ingredients include the water when adding to the diet . This is why many products have protein as the first ingredient

Lets start with wet food A typical analysis might read as follows
Tinned ( Wet) Chicken Dog food
Moisture: 72%;
Protein:14%;
Total Fat: 11%;
Ash: 2%;
Crude Fibre: 1%

Since we can only truly evaluate the proper protein and fat in a dry matter basis we need to remove the moisture. Since moisture in the above analysis is 72%, we must deduct it from 100 = 28%.Thus, we only have 28% of usable food.
To work out the actual protein we need to divide the protein content by the dry matter content
14 ÷ 28 = 0.5 we then multiply it by 100 to get the percentage protein
0.5 x 100 = 50% protein.
We do the same with the fat! In above example the fat is 11% therefore we divide it by 28 11 ÷ 28 = 0.39 x 100 = 39% fat.
You need to remember that the 100g of wet food is only 28g of dry food once the moisture has been removed.
Dried foods on the other hand usually have a moisture content of around 8%
A typical analysis is as follows

Dried Chicken Dog Food
Protein:18%;
Moisture: 8%;
Total Fat: 8%;
Ash: 6%;
Crude Fibre:3%
Doing the above calculation -remove the moisture -
100 -8 = 92 We then divide by the protein (1
by the moisture free food (92) 18 ÷ 92 = 0.195 x 100 = 19.56% protein.
If we use the same approach with raw chicken! Raw chicken contains around 80% moisture and in a dry matter basis around 70% protein. Thus 100g of raw chicken = 20g of dried food of which 70% protein = 14% So even raw food is low protein."
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Meg
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27-11-2013, 11:29 AM
Dogs are carnivores meaning they where designed to eat a very high protein diet, where did this come about that they should eat less?

I am currently in the very early stages of a canine nutrition course and I am hoping this will be covered as well as I would like but I get the feeling it won't be
Sarah I think there is a lot of nonsense talked about 'too much protein' in dog food and I think it came about originally by the multinational dog food companies who used a minimum of animal based protein and a lot of fillers in their food then tried to convince owners their food was the best.
I know years ago research was carried out by some dog food manufacturers to discover the minimum nutritional requirements needed to keep a dog alive no doubt to maximise their profits. The photographs which leaked of what was done to the dogs during this research were horrendous
I am of an age to have been around before kibble came into existence when dogs were fed on table scraps or tinned dog food the latter consisting mainly of left over bits of animal suitable from human consumption and 'fallen stock' or knackers meat/fishbits.
One thing this type of food didn't have was loads of chemicals and preservatives .

Back in the 60's I began working in large 'hobby kennels' owned by the wealthy. Their dogs were fed better than their staff , meat of all kinds /fish/eggs/vegetables and a little wholemeal biscuit and porridge basically a high protein diet with very few 'additives' of any kind. I mixed with lots of doggy people and I can't remember experiencing or hearing about many of the illness particularly cancers that we hear about in dogs these days.
There may of course be environmental factors contributing to these illness but for me it is common sense that poor quality low protein dog food will not help to build a strong immune system in our dogs.

Thankfully in the last few years we have started to see some better quality dog foods coming on the market with higher animal protein levels and less 'fillers'.
I think as is the case with human food a larger number of people are beginning to question what goes into the food they are feeding their dogs.
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Imana-Banana
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27-11-2013, 11:46 AM
I agree Meg, we as humans are starting to realise that all our prepacked ready made microwave meals are maybe not so good I remember when Vesta curries came out, remember the freeze dried stuff My mum loved 'em, she wouldn't touch one with a barge pole now.

There is so much conflicting information out there and the dog food manufacturers have soo much money to throw at their products, when you look at how much money Bakers throw at their product it's no wonder people can think it's good stuff.

I read recently it's something like one in three dogs will now get cancer I don't remember anyone's dog dying of cancer when I was a kid (I am sure some did but maybe not so many)
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tawneywolf
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27-11-2013, 11:47 AM
Absolutely spot on Meg
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Florence
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27-11-2013, 12:06 PM
Thanks Meg, great post! I completely agree!
I believe there's a link between so many dogs having all sorts of illnesses (cancer, arthritis, tumours etc.) from bad dog food.
It's the same with humans, cancer didn't used to be this much of a problem for so many people. And I firmly believe this has to do with our nutrition. We eat way too much sugar and carbs (which are essentially hidden sugars), and we've even started putting this into our dogs' food.
Sugar is the devil, it prevents our immune system from fighting off potentially cancerous cells (if anyone is more interested in this subject I can only recommend the book 'Anticancer'. After a cancer scare it helped me a lot).

I completely agree that the big dog food companies are just money making machines who don't really care about our dogs' wellbeing. I've recently read an article where it suggests that a lot of Vet surgeries actually benefit from that. They're sponsored by a dog food company, so they sell and recommend that food to their clients, which makes their dogs ill, which brings them back to the surgery.
I'm sure not all vets are like that but I can see the logic behind it.
So whatever the big dog food industry is telling us, I don't trust it because there's an incentive behind it.
There's a difference on how much protein a dog needs to survive, and how much it needs to thrive.
What they tell us is the minimum of protein they need to survive, but in reality dog food should primarily be made up of (good) protein for them to stay healthy.
So since I got more into dog nutrition I'm more careful what to feed my dog. Cheaper doesn't always end up cheaper in the long run, is what I believe.
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tawneywolf
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27-11-2013, 01:35 PM
The other thing is that out of the 5 year course that Vets do, only 2 weeks of that is devoted to nutrition...and guess who sponsers it....the commercial food manufacturers!!!
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Julie
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27-11-2013, 01:51 PM
I home cook for mine, I have found the 30% veg 30% carb 30% protein idea works pretty well, we use human quality beef mince and chicken, frozen mixed veg and either rice or pasta (try to alternate so they get a bit of difference each week. We also give them tripe once a week and if we can get some cheap fish they have that too.

Only time I stopped was when Betty was tiny pup I felt she possibly needed more of some things but was bamboozled by advice from the internet so gave in and fed commercial. In the 6 months I did that Mollie lost a lot of her bounce and her coat has gone scurfy so we are now back on home cooked and she is looking much better after just 10 days.

I know raw is probably best but I just can't do it so I cook it all up and they seem to enjoy it and thrive on it.
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Jenny
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27-11-2013, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by tawneywolf View Post
The other thing is that out of the 5 year course that Vets do, only 2 weeks of that is devoted to nutrition...and guess who sponsers it....the commercial food manufacturers!!!
I've heard that too and how many dogs who are recommended Hills by vets actually like the food . A friend of mines dog had to have 9 teeth removed two days ago and she was worried because she hadn't eaten since the op. She was given a can of wet food from the vets and the dog wouldn't touch it. I told her to give the dog a scrambled egg and she hoovered it up.
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Mattie
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27-11-2013, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by tawneywolf View Post
The other thing is that out of the 5 year course that Vets do, only 2 weeks of that is devoted to nutrition...and guess who sponsers it....the commercial food manufacturers!!!
That is for all animals not just dogs, I heard that it is only half a day on dog nutrition.
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