i wouldnt say any puppy or dog would be ugly.. a show dog isnt bred for looks its bred for confirmation and the breed standard that includes things like bone, build, movement etc.. they have to be good in all areas.. a dog could be flashy as anything, but if its got a bad back end and doesnt walk properly it doesnt get placed.. a show isnt judged on looks alone.

Well it aint judged on working ability.................

i know that. my point was a lot more goes into breeding a show dog than just them looking good.

Like i said i have a very limited knowledge on the subject, even more so showing dogs.
I was intrested in this topic because of working dogs as this is a subject i have been learning a lot about recently and plan on learning more about. In future i shall only pass coment on things im a certified expert in shall i? Yes it wasxa general statement but did also mention thats about all i know on the subject. You just jumped on my back about breeding and showing i never said anybody was a bad breeder just mearly pointed out that the way a dog looks is a mayjor part of showing yes i know there are many irher factors but its about the dog looking the way it should a working breeder wouldnt be so bothered aslong as dog was healthy and fit for purpose

the way you wrote it implied that show breeders do not care about anything other than looks yet working do so much more.

im not arguing with you, i was just pointing out that there is more than looks when breeding a litter whether its for the show ring or not.

I am not saying that every single breeder out there, be it work or show, is responsible and I'm certainly not defending the irresponsible ones. However, there are a lot of health problems which have nothing to do with the working lines - bulldogs, cavaliars, etc etc etc.

Nowhere have a I said that all working breeders are angels but I don't believe that all show breeders are either.

My question was does the english setter have the "correct confirmation". Only choosing this breed because it is one of the breeds that there is a massive difference in. Should the "correct confirmation" include the ability to work? Are we forgetting the original jobs of these dogs? Does it matter as there is a split. The working people get on with what they are doing and the show people get on with what they are doing. Who cares AS LONG AS THEY ARE HEALTHY? I don't and I said it before.

Helen

We don't actually 'need' show dogs at all if we are truthful - and 90% of the population probably don't 'need' working dogs.

We're getting 'need' and 'want' confused here, I think.

If my livelihood depended on working with a dog, I would 'need' a working dog. If I choose to participate in a hobby, I might 'want' a show dog or a dog from working lines....but I don't 'need' one - any more than I 'need' to indulge in my hobbies.

Helen makes a really good point about confirmation, because breed standards are amended over time and the interpretation of the breed standard also evolves over time too. You just have to look at many breeds over teh last 100 years to see that.

I believe this is largely because of a shift in attitude towards the show-ring. When dogs began to be bred specifically for the show ring as opposed to being bred as working dogs and then just picked out to attend shows; the emphasis would have shifted away from working ability and eventually, in many breeds, the breed clubs and judges will have evolved into people whose aim was showing for showing's sake. One that happens, there is inevitably a risk that judges are appointed with very scant knowledge of working dogs at all - or a genuine interest in working dogs.

I know there are many dogs in some breeds that do perform well as working dogs and show dogs and the 2 activities need not be mutually exclusive...

But I also think dog shows in general have lost the plot and the dogs selected as winners are not necessarily of the correct 'type' at all! They are of the type that has evolved physically to 'showcase' all the physical attributes that are deemed desireable in a breed (and without committed breeders and judges who have a genuine understanding of function, this will lead to gross exaggeration of some features, so even a numpty can spot them) They are also, in some cases, likely to have a totally watered down temperament and working drive, because show breeders need pet homes to take their surplus pups....and people tend to pick dogs based on a 'look' rather than because they actually have any interest in what the breed was for.

I know there are breeders in both camps who go all out for health - and those that don't. There are also thousands of dogs bred in puppy farms for the pet market

Excellent post

The *point* of working dogs is to work Originally many dogs had a job to do. Nowadays, not so many - however, my hubby is one of the few who still need working dogs to be able to perform his every day job.

The *point* of show dogs is open to much interpretation However, showing is a hobby, and for breeders and exhibitors to showcase the best in their kennels and to contrast and compare their animals to others in their breed.

A working dog can be shown - but it may not do very well in the show ring compared to the show counterparts, and a show dog can work but may not have the same level of drive and focus to get the job done as a dog bred solely for working purposes. This is a general rule - there are always exceptions.

People choose their breed or type of dog for many reasons. Exercise and energy levels are only one criteria.

Excellent post and points made