I keep seeing this argument, but surely there are good examples of working breeds that are owned by people who don't want to work towards a working qualification preferring instead to occupy their dogs in other ways to compensate?

The thing is it's not just show people concerned with looks, a lot of the general public are the same. I remember not so long ago posting a pic of Oscar (I think on the HWV thread) and one reply stated something like "I much prefer the ones with the longer coats". Now that's all well and good, but the long, light coats are incorrect! It goes against the whole point of the working dog! It wouldn't take long before a BYB started breeding long/light coated HWV for money and again the breed has changed. Human beings will always be obsessed with "looks", I suppose that's why we have so many different looking breeds doing the same jobs?

As far as I'm concerned the only way you can prevent it in breeds like gundogs is to bring back the working qualification. If you had to get placed in a working test before you could get Sh Ch status then it'd soon change!

Thankfully the breed standard has since been changed in the HWV so that yellow and brown coats are classed as a fault, but that's mainly thanks to the people who work and show them for pushing for it.

Also I don't think the judges can be fully blamed, a lot of what goes on is down to the breeders and breed clubs. What they breed will always influence the judging as the judge can only judge what is in the ring iyswim.

Yup of course I never said it was solely on the shoulders of the show breeders
But it does seem a case of where they go others follow

I never intended to put the blaim fully at the feet of the judge, but at the same time they have to shoulder quite a bit of the blaime as the dog they pick is suddenly a star - and if it is a male then his genes will contribute greatly to the next generation as people strive to win

Of course it is not just one group or person to blaim, but in some ways they do have a disspraportionate effect on how the breeds change - and hopefully a bigger effect for good if they choose to weild it

I'm with you on all that and part of the problem is people within the breed get so accustomed to these exaggerations-on-exaggerations that they see them as improvements (and even argue that they are more in keeping with the breeds' functions ), not the deteriorations that those not in the breed can see.

On the other hand, I don't think colour alone, unless there's an associated health issue, is good enough reason to dq a dog from showing jmo.

I knew a guy with a Hwv, lovely dog.

If the dog was created to perform a function and the coat is a major part of this function then yes I do think it is a good enough reason to prevent it from getting top honours in the show ring.

You've lost me.

Apologies, I read working test as working trials. Either a senior moment, tiredness, or most likely both

Ah ok, I read it several times and was still a bit

And a good reason to adopt the system they have on the continent!

Also remember that judges are often breeders and there will be a lot of pressure put on them to either not look like they're doing people favours, or to actually do people favours. I don't think I'd ever like to be a judge, you'd be damned if you do and damned if you don't!