It's also a problem if you send your dog to hunt for a bird or rabbit - then they come across a deer - in the sense that they will chase that, sometimes handlers aren't within close enough reach to see the deer or command the dogs other wise - but SB explained it pretty well.

I am attending a training class at the moment and it's still very much old school there. The trainers dont believe in treats (i'm the only one who takes any!) and they treat their dogs very harshly e.g picking them up by the loose skin on their necks to give them a telling off, I even witnessed one man kick his dog in the side. Most gundog people are still of the opinion that your dog should do something because you tell it to and it's reward should be the act of doing what it was bred to do. It's very rare you hear anybody actually praising their dog for a job well done. At the test on Sunday some dogs were doing everything right and the handlers simply put the leads back on and walked off without a word to the dog.

I was earwigging to a trainer who owns a gundog training school and he was very much for punishment so i'll know not to contact him! He was describing one method of setting your dog up to deliberately fail by searching for a dummy that doesnt exist and then when it moves on to try somewhere else, you give it a "slap" and shout at it and then when it isnt looking you drop the dummy. Then you bring it back to 'prove' the dummy was there all along and the dog is supposed to think you are brilliant. I see his point but I dont agree with it. He was also spouting alot of other rubbish I didnt agree with (and others didnt so a heated discussion ensued!)

I have found a trainer fairly local who, although believes the dog should do as you say because you are the master and doesnt use treats, believes that you should mark an undesirable behaviour with a firm "no" and then change your tone immediately and encourage it to do the right thing. He never shouts and never lays a hand on the dog and he's also very calm and laid back.

You will always get people who remark on certain things, i've had it myself when an old gent went out of his way to tell me I shouldnt run a gundog with collies. Maybe when i'm retired like he was then i'll have the time!

I've been told about the barbed wire thing as well, it's barbaric, but hard mouth is a taboo subject and not many people admit their dogs are hard mouthed, but plenty are and they work them. The Americans have a big thing for putting ecollars on their hunting dogs. To me it's just plain laziness.

Ooh dear, what would he think to my lot - we'll have a Shih Tzu joining us this weekend too

Louie was and I guess he still is, I just don't notice it that much - a mouther - I wouldn't say he was hard mouthed - he just likes to position the dummy comfortably in his mouth, it's when he starts fathing about with it that I tell him no, he's been playing up the past couple of days and even shook it once - first time he's ever done it though..

When I mentioned the point that an e-collar would need topping up in different situations I was told that it wouldn't and that some dogs have it so deep and ingrained without an e-collar the behaviour would not be able to be changed - My example may not be of a gun dog one, but Benjie's DA was deep and ingrained and he's not half as bad as he used to be and it's took me 2 years without an e-collar..

Hmm but you are not really comparing apples with apples here, more apples with oranges................

Still showed that even though it takes longer - it works though

thank you both