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Labman
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19-10-2009, 01:57 PM
Although there seems to be an agenda behind everything any more, it does seem the DNA evidence shows the dog descended from specifically the Asian wolf.

I have also seen evidence the bull dog breeds have much shorter jaws than 50 year ago.
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John Bull
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19-10-2009, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Labman View Post
Although there seems to be an agenda behind everything any more, it does seem the DNA evidence shows the dog descended from specifically the Asian wolf.

I have also seen evidence the bull dog breeds have much shorter jaws than 50 year ago.
Hi Ted,
The creature of pre-history from which our modern dog evolved lived on the planet around 56 million years ago. It was not the Asian Wolf whatever source says so - there simply was NO Asia then and there were no Wolves. Just a dog-like creature.

Variants according to environment progressively developed, including mutations over the millions of years from that period.

It may be that short sighted Zoologists only go to a million years or so and recognise the most obvious animal that existed - the Wolf perhaps, but that is being over enthusiastic in their suppositions and highly erroneous in the vastness of such a time scale when dealing with the evolution and environmental variations of a species.
John Bull
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johnderondon
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19-10-2009, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by John Bull View Post
Hi Ted,
The creature of pre-history from which our modern dog evolved lived on the planet around 56 million years ago.
You are being entirely arbitrary in where you are placing the starting flag. Why not pick Luca?

The moment that dogs become domesticated natural selection went out the window in favour of artificial selection. The dog evolved but not in accordance with the Darwinian model.
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John Bull
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19-10-2009, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by johnderondon View Post
You are being entirely arbitrary in where you are placing the starting flag. Why not pick Luca?

The moment that dogs become domesticated natural selection went out the window in favour of artificial selection. The dog evolved but not in accordance with the Darwinian model.
Gee Whizz man - you mean to say that Darwin`s Theory is wrong ! Well I never did, all my confidence in poor old Charlie has been misplaced.

By the way - nobody is talking about domestication, the theme is evolution - a function of time - not a function of man`s intervention. Domestication was only possible on an existing species made available by evolution.
John Bull
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tazer
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19-10-2009, 04:43 PM
While we're on the subject of prehistoric dogs, or relatives, thought I'd post this guy for you to look at.

[IMG][/IMG]

As far as skull shape goes, I havn't ever heard of a wild canine or relative prehistoric or not, that had the skull shape of moddern bulldogs or boxers. Even 100 years ago, the bulldog had a longer jaw then it does now.

Many of the ancient breeds like malamutes or huskies, in my oppinion could be a combination of both environmental and human selection. However, most moddern domestic breeds, are pure human selection, looking to the bulldog again.
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johnderondon
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19-10-2009, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by John Bull View Post
Gee Whizz man - you mean to say that Darwin`s Theory is wrong ! Well I never did, all my confidence in poor old Charlie has been misplaced.
That's is misrepresenting what I wrote. Darwin's theory of natural selection is valid but not when the predominant selection pressure is artificial (i.e. man-made choices)

By the way - nobody is talking about domestication, the theme is evolution - a function of time - not a function of man`s intervention.
You are confusing evolution with Darwinism. They are not synonymous. When you wrote...

When Charles Darwin first gave his lecture on Evolution to the Royal Society in the late 1800`s,
you were mistaken. Darwin lecture was on his theory of Natural Selection. His most famous work On the Origin of Species doesn't even mention the word 'evolution'.

Evolution can be achieved by either natural or artificial selection pressure - both are a phenomena that occur over time but they are quite different.

Domestication was only possible on an existing species made available by evolution.
John Bull
I'll assume that you are using the term to mean 'evolution through natural selection' which is true but you have no evidence that brachycephalic dogs pre-date domestication and the predominance of artificial selection in dogs.
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