Thanks June, and that's very interesting that you should say all that, coz thinking about it, she always kept to the rear of me or out to the side, but never went in front of me Georgie was way out to the side when we met the other dogs, but when I say way out, I'm only talking 30ft, he never goes further than that away from me. She was always happy to come bouncing over to me, even though I had no treats, and she was leaving Georgie to do so, things are looking up then! The only time I had to run and follow HER was when she went across to Georgie, but she never went to go ahead. This is looking good for lead off time then! I'm still nervous but you have made me feel a lot better June! xxx

Oh H, I am that made up for you and Zena of course, what a clever little girl you are!

Elaine xx

Think of the wolf pack Helena,the babies instinctively follow their mothers and siblings, because if they didn't they wouldn't last long would they?? That instinctive behaviour is what you have to use. Believe you me this is the absolute best time to establish the pecking order, i.e. she follows YOU - NOT the other way round!!! When you spoke about previous dogs when you are on the yard going backwards and forwards to the muckheap, it is no different from what you are doing now, the puppy followed you backwards and forwards, this is the same, except you aren't on the stable yard anymore When she gets a bit older she will begin to want to charge off on her own, it is natural, but if you have established a decent recall you have more chance of her coming back to you fairly quickly, I do tend to keep walking if mine go off after a squirrel or rabbit or something, as it just keeps them that little bit insecure and more likely to come back quickly if they know I will not wait around for them or chase after them. I am their security and provider and they don't want to lose me, now do they

Go on bite the bullet I found letting a small pup off lead to leanr recall and manners with other dogs is easier than letting a "teenager" off lead who people then consider to be a hooligan.
People are a lot more forgiving of puppy errors than "teenage hooligan" errors...so are other dogs to be honest. My Sal will forgive and even allow a strange pup liberties, she would not allow as the pup gets to "teenage" months....but the pups get a good "instinct" of other dogs from the start who to play with andhow to initiate it, who to ignore, who to avoid and who are friendly but not "players" who ill share who won't its like a playground and the sooner she learns the rules the better for her and you.
Georgie is obviously a player with pups, my Sal isn't but will ... happily tolerate/meet greet and to my surprise at times has even gone as far as to protect a pup or two from over enthusiastic/aggresive adult dogs...

I watch her approach other dogs and have learnt to "note and take action with her approach to them" and she is rarely wrong.

Let her off she will stay with you, but take the squeaky and yes put her on off lead and not always on lead when you see another dog otherwise she will associate a dog approaching you with "danger/trouble/fear/lead" which you won't want. Hopefully Georgie has taught her some doggie manners in meet and greet.

Oh I meant to say keep walking I do I watch where Sal is but not follow her in fact if she goes too far off (rare these days and usualy an excellent reason ie once a fallen man in the park at Christmas) I turn and go the other way. SO much so that at a crossroads if she is in front she will wait for me to point not speak) the direction I intend to go and go that way so I make the descisions not her, so even if she is in front "on point" my OH calls it she is still following my instruction. When she was a teenager (and being a Sbt) if she went to far outsde my "safe zone" I would hide behind a tree and she would worry and search, then I wold make myself seen again and she would find me a stick like glue...if she was being totaly interested in rabbit/cow/fox/horse poo or squirrels etc that is Ohh so exciting to a youngster I would sit/crouch down on the grassso she would come back to see what I was doing because of course "I amd her life and more interesting than anything in her world" always. So why miss out on my "new find" back she would charge, let her stay with me then slip her lead on for about 2 minutes then a game of ball off lead then on lead then off again....so she associated the lead with somehing good to come... dog minds I did not know I had practiced till I started to type this.

Thanks for sharing my excitement!! I still can't believe it, her very first outing, she's never been outside the garden apart from in the car and to the vets, and yet she took it all in her stride, with a little bit of help and persuasion from me of course. I didn't pull her once, I just let her have as much space as she needed until eventually she came in to say hello to her very first dog when out!

All so interesting for me yet again there June! Did you ever try to Monty Roberts thing with your horse??? I did, and I managed to get him following me around the school, turning sharp left and right whenever I did, so if I can do it with a great big strapping 16h2" horse, I'm darn sure a cute little puppy will be a doddle!! You're soooo right. I've been watching a lot of The Dog Whisperer lately and he's taught me a few things I didn't know. I never worried before with any puppies, I just did what came natural, and it was so natural for me to have them loose around me up at the yard, to the point of coming out with me on my horse for a short walk in the woods, and yet they never, ever went off the track into the woods, they just stuck in front of me the correct distance. I've always been very verbal with my dogs too, always talking to them, always telling them how good they are, and I was doing that this morning with Zena, I hope she understood! I'm sure she felt totally relaxed! I understand about the other dogs and putting her back onlead, BUT, when one was coming over this morning, she WAS going to run in the opposite direction (that was the 2nd dog we met!), until I called her and crouched down next to the new dog, and that is what worries me, would she run off in that kind of situation, being scared. Perhaps not, if she sees me as the security she should come back to me. I hope!!!!xxxxx

Thanks for all that Kazz, all very informative to me. I won't be bothered one iota when I've seen how she behaves offlead for the first time, and I'm going to do this on our OWN first and then I will let her play with the other dogs that I know, who I always meet on our usual morning walk. They're all over friendly, some don't even take any notice of Georgie, so they won't bother with her, but will let her go up for a sniff, I know that! It's just that it's so late in the day to have done any of this, other pups of mine would have been with me twice a day offlead at the horse, so this is all new territory for me and the more help and advice I can get the better. I've been given some brilliant advice her, and I know for sure, it's the wtg tomorrow. I'll keep doing the on and off lead bit as you say, just to ensure her, she's going to get her freedom All very exciting for me actually. I'll feel a load better when we've started our training classes. I know she's good at home, but there's nothing here now to attract her attention elsewhere is there, she knows everything around her, but new sights, new smells, possible fears, just makes me a bit apprehensive as to what she would actually do! I remember Georgie running off with me once when I thought I had instilled an excellent recall with him, but give him his due, it was a very windy day, we were on top of the downs, and he had only gone off to smell a dollop of fresh horse poo and tucked into it! Lol! He was easy to grab whilst eating that!!!!

If you get anxious when she goes near other dogs, then she will think there is something to be anxious about!!! There is a border collie a few doors away from me that attacked my 2 within a few days of me taking them out for the first time, they have never ever forgotten it, and now they are big girlies (twice the size of the collie) it is like world war 3 when they see it, to the point where I flinch if I even hear it, even passing the house sets it off and sets my 2 off. According to its owners they always know when I am nearby because the dog goes berserk. I am now wondering whether the fact that I myself am nervous about even passing the house (it once ran out and had a go at mine when they were onlead) communicates to my 2, the dog is trying to get through the window at them, so it double enforces there is something to get wound up about. I am stuck in a vicious circle, and I can recognise what is happening and why, but can't find my way around the situation!!! So just telling you this so you can see how easy these sort of situations can arise out of seemingly nowhere!!! It sounds like you have lots of lovely friendly dogs and responsible owners near to you so it probably will never happen. Have a lovely walk tomorrow Helena, you will be so relieved once you have taken that step into the unknown, and it isn't really unknown is it? You have done it before, but never thought about it, just used your instincts, and it turned out fine

Oh that sounds awful JUne!! I would hate for something like that to happen! No, other dogs won't worry me, the only thing that actually worries me is, whether or not SHE will take off, and with my other pups who would have been with me for weeks before this age would have known that if I call them back, they would come, whereas Zena has not gone through that time with me if you know what I mean, so I don't KNOW whether she will come back or not do I, being that she's never been out like this before, I will just have to trust my instincts that she will come back if necessary, if only to Georgie, the others have usually come back if anything has scared them if only to be with my other dog, so at least I've got that going for me! I wouldn't get nervous in any way about any other dogs or anything like that, I'm not the nervous type, the only thing that makes me nervous is the fear of her not knowing me enough yet, not having been out with me enough yet offlead to know that she needs to stick with me, but if you're telling me that will be her instinct I really don't have anything to worry about do I? I hope!!! I keep throwing that bit in don't I! Lol! The teenage stage I can deal with, I'm always one step ahead, I know the dog inside out, I know what she will and will not have learned with me at our training or at home or in fact, just what I have learned about her when we've been out lots and lots, but for the moment in time, I honestly don't know, I will just have to put MY trust in her that she will stick around no matter what confronts us!!! I hope!!! Lol! Thanks again June, and I'm sorry you went through that nightmare, and that is exactly what I don't want with her, I've never had it before with any of my pups and I certainly don't want it with this one thank goodness I want her to stay the friendly, sociable little thing that she is, and this morning she proved to me that she is also bold with it, which I more than like, so if she ends up timid, that'll be my fault, but it just won't happen with me, I only go headless chicken when something HAS happened not before! xxxx

Having an older trained does help enormously. I only ended up in this position because my poor old girl had another stroke before I could bring Cariad home, and I knew she had come to the end of the road, although selfishly I thought 'well you could have given me a couple of months and helped me..' so I brought back 2, which has been 'interesting' shall we say The original plan was to have Cariad whilst Tawney was still with me and able to support me, and then when the inevitable happened, then get another pup, but hey nothing ever goes as planned does it However by the time I found a pup that was from the background I wanted, it was 2 years down the line. So I am really pleased Georgie is there to help, because with him showing her what to do and being her protector as well, and you being her mummy that she loves, things will work out really well for you all.
The collie is a flaming menace I have a friend nearby who has horses, breeds Great Danes, has a border terrier, and a couple of JR's, and the flaming thing is forever jumping in her field and chasing her dogs, he has absolutely no control over it whatsover, so I am not the only one who has problems with it.

glad it all went well, and she met lots of nice friendly dogs . when duke was a pup i let him off lead and he was very good always staying close and if he ever got a bit far i would run away in the oppisite direction and he soon can running back (sounds mean i know but if i chased him he would think it was a game). Just a warning though, i had him offlead once he was walking along by my side and 2 dogs can running towards us quite far from their owner as they got closer they started barking and he just shot away screaming. i managed to get to him before he got near the road but it scared me to death and he was petrified and after that he was scared when he met new dogs (untill he got bigger then them ) i don;t know if the dogs would have done anything but it was just the way they barked charging towards must have been very scary for him

Well done, sounds like it went great you must be so excited you can take her out on walks now.