I don't think anyone is defending puppy farming. It just happens that the products of these mostly go to pet homes because this is the market that's easiest and cheapest to breed for. They don't have to breed to very specific criteria in appearance and don't have to spend a fortune travelling to venues to prove their 'quality.' But it doesn't follow that all pet breeders have the same lack of ethics as puppy farmers and also that not all show breeders have ethics any better than puppy farmers.

Your example of the fox breeding experiment and guide dogs is more akin to the results of show breeders focusing on 'breed type' than pet breeders ethics methinks

If I only had one show quality puppy in any of my litters I'd seriously rethink my breeding program! When people say they breed to keep one to show they mean THEY keep one to show - NOT produce just one puppy in a litter that's good enough to show!

Debs

You are assuming that all pet breeders are puppy farmers!

Why should an ethical pet breeder be any less likely to keep a pup from every litter than a show breeder?

Well I;ve yet to meet a pet breeder that does retain a puppy for future breeding programs.
Becky

Good thread.

I would never breed from a dog that hasnt proved itself worthy in the field FIRST, showring second. Paramount would be health and temperament. There are several point being made I strongly agree and disagree with, if I may...

Surannon said.
I disagree, the top showers breed regularly and produce a constant stream of animals, if one doesnt cut it, they rehome it, inside 12 months, usually 6 they have one to replace it. This is why you have "top" breeders, they are also those that breed a lot too.

Quite often that IS the case, but you know as well as I do, that there are hundreds of timid tempered dogs or dogs that "dont like showing" that will never see a ring but will certainly be bred from.

I watched a champion Spaniel attack a judge, likewise a Bullmastiff, I have seem Malamutes, Labradors, Dobermanns, Rotweillers, Goldens and many more try to, and actually bite judges, and they have previously or subsequently been bred from.

Mahooli said.
Oh they do you know. Id like to see EVERY "show" breeder do the same!!

Nevertheless they do exist. I do agree that a pet bred dog is more likely to have come from a puppy farm than a show dog is but the question being asked is - should a dog have to prove itself in the showring before being bred?

If the answer to this is yes, then you are eliminating some breeders that for instance; do all appropriate health tests, vet potential owners thoroughly, endorse registrations and provide contracts, breed to the standard without exaggeration and with regard to health, and have better knowledge of genetics than most show breeders I know.

I think you'll find that I believe that any breeding animal should be assessed by a breed expert first and foremost, they don't have to prove themselves in the ring or indeed working as many dogs jobs are no longer legal.
Showing can be a very bitchy place to be. I try to just get on with anyone without all the politics and I wouldn't erxpect everyone to like it so I don't think they should be forced to show just so they can breed, but the dog should be assessed to be a reasonable example of it's breed.
I agree that dogs shouldn't be bred over exaggerated and infact I would go as far to state that that should be under the consideration for health, health isn't just oh he breathes ok and his hearts alright but it's their physical structure too.
As to a knowledge of genetics I doubt there are that many pet breeders who have superior knowledge to some show breeders but I do agree that many show breeders don't have that kind of knowledge, nor are willing to learn. I had to explain to someone that technically two genetically clear dogs by dna couldn't produce an affected of that disease, but they kept harping on about but if they have an affected in their background so it could come through. Took me ages to get them to understand that it simply wasn't possible unless the dna test was flawed, otherwise whats the point of dna testing!
Becky

In short, yes.

Coming from someone who is considering breeding in the future, I'd like to think that the dog I was breeding from was as close to possible to the breed standard. And I don't just mean in looks, the breed standard also applies to the dogs conformation in relation to its original purpose.

Take Isla for example:

Health wise she appears healthy, but the tests will prove that later. Hopefully a box ticked.

Her temperament is spot on for me, she's bold, but not bolshy, she's not timid, but she's cautious, she loves kids, other dogs, people and she's not completely hyper. Basically her breeders bred dogs that you could take anywhere and do anything with. Isla is defintely that, so that's the temperament box ticked IMO.

Working, I'm training Isla for the Gundog Clubs Grades, where possible and she has the drive to retrieve and flush so the basics are there, but time will tell (I don't help her in this department! ). Fingers crossed, another box ticked.

And then there's showing, again time will tell as to how well she fits the standard. If we qualify for Crufts, I'd be satisfied.

If we manage all these things, only then will I seriously consider breeding.

And I think that's the way it should always be.

That's quite a sweeping statement Becky. It is also quite offensive for many people I'm sure.
There is a WORLD of difference between a puppy farm and a pet owner who breeds from a health checked dog with a sound temprament once or twice.
Are you suggesting that those who show can't be 'puppy farmers?' Or that farmers with working dogs can't be puppy farmers???

Surely, there are many breeds out there that don't look like they are supposed to thanks to over breeding and over focusing on particualr traits in the show ring?
Personally I use 'breed type' as a guide, not a be all and end all, so what if all retirvers don't conform perfectly to the standard (or any other breed),as long as they are 'generally' of the type and are fit and sound in temprament.
I think you'll find that what Guide Dogs breed are healthy dogs with a nice temprament. no, 'not just' there.