Hi both - spoken to my vet this morning and seeing her next week and yes they will castrate at 8mths and change diet to rice base - but when I explained the fiull situationshe said send him back you have a major problem. Also contacted a behavioralist who said classic case of indulgance lack of socialisation in the house - they allowed him to wreak without correction and obviously shut him in a crate and left him. I have been up most of the night I was so upsaet this morning at 7am went back to bed and he got up by me and lay there very close to me for an hour without moving - no problem - he is so desperate for love and I love him but cannot be housebound for 10 years because he cannot be lef - we do not have the facilities to lock him up outside - and I think the breeder wouls like me to pay for castration but if he has to go back because of other problem - i think it is up to here she did not do a good house check originally and was not totally open with us.

Hi Tirnanog,

this sounds terribly upsetting for you You obviously care for him very much, i wonder with him lying with you for the whole hour without jumping about may be a bit of a turning point, he may be starting to feel more secure with you. have you tried the crate in the bedroom yet? It does sound as though he has just been locked away somewhere at his other place.

do you have any family close by that could come and help with the walking on the lead training?

Hi Toby - yes I am terribly upset - having been yearning for a dog for twelve months - no dog walkers really - he cannot be handled she the breeder let him run loose and only had him on lead short time - he is deperate for love but behaviou unapproprate - went to get dredde this morning and he would not leave my clothes alone and I dont mean just nicking a sock - this was a tug of war - Hal corrected him and he grabbed Hals arm no growling etc and mouthed quite nastily and then jumped up and had a go at me - so that had cooked his goose as they say - too upset to say more at the moment

crate in the bedroom yet? - see my earlier post - he went bolistic this is the report I am sending his breeder

Just to let you know where we are at - last night we had a repeat of the mounting and attempted destruction in the bedroom for about 2 hrs - I crated him and in absolute terror he almost lifted the crate off the floor - so that was a no go area - I got up at 6 he went out and at 7 am took him back into bedroom - he got on the bed and curled up against me and went to sleep. Rang vet seeing Barbara next Weds but when I spoke to the other vet she said that they could castrate and change diet etc etc - but when given the full history felt that we had a problem beyond our capabilities to sort out due to age and limitation of bungalow etc. In desperation I also contacted a behaviorist in Oswestry who was very good and very expensive [£60 an hour which I cannot afford] anyway spoke at length on the phone - told him the story as we know it and what had happened last night - he said I can tell you exactly what has happened - He has been allowed to get away with murder as a pup after he left his breeder - under socialized in the house with furniture etc - or not taught the boundaries and then when they could not handle him he was crated and shut away - so now he has a separation anxiety that would take months to if ever to sort out.. He is so desperate for love - but does not know the boundaries. Unfortunately this morning because we could not leave him in the kitchen while I got dressed [Hal has to help me] socks shoes etc cannot reach my feet - he kept trying to get my clothes. Hal corrected him and he got aggressive - no growl - but a tightening of the jaws on Hals hand and then an aggressive mouthing on my arm that continued for the length of the Hall we could not get him off - and I am afraid that we cannot handle that - if I could time out him without destruction we might get somewhere -but we are going to get bitten. So sad isn't it a lovely dog ruined by stupid people - please believe we are both terribly upset - but tI.m afraid he aggression this morning went beyond what we can handle

Tirnanog I am very sorry and feel 'someone' may have been less than frank with you about Max's problems. It sounds to me as though the poor dog has had a really bad start and through no fault of his own has a number of problems that require lots of time/patience/love and a firm strong person to correct them. If I was not working I would be tempted to take him on and work with him full time.

In is no reflection on you if you are not the person to take on this task because of your mobility problems.
If Max has been crated incorrectly and developed a fear of crates, and is also destructive your task will be even more difficult,you have to step by step go back and retrain /undo the problems that have arisen. If the breeder is prepared to take him back and keep him as her own I would think very carefuly about your position ..

Well folk due to the aggression this morning - Max is going back to the breeder asap - I have just spoken to her - I cannot say more at this point - I feel a failure - disappointed / upset / angry / please do not think I was too soft on him I have always had rescue gundogs and as an ex ward sister I can assert my authority but I cannot cope with this destruction -it is not fair on my O H - the thought of a dogless future is bleak but too afraid to even contemplate it at the moment

i am so sorry for you things have not worked out, you have tried your best but he does have a lot of problems. I dont think the breeder should have offered him to you, all this has been so unfair for you and for Max who sound like he has had a bad start in life.

ive just read you last post, you mustn't feel any of those things, its the people before you that have let Max down, you have done your very best for him.

I'm so sorry that you've found you've got to part with Max, but at the same time, I think you're doing the most sensible thing for both yourselves and the dog. He will be happy back with the breeder where he's got plenty of safe space in which to run around etc. he'll have the company of other dogs, and like you say, he will be there for life. The longer you would have kept him, the more upsetting it would have been for you and the dog, so this really is the only option you had. Please don't blame yourself, I don't think anyone would have tried as hard as you both have to correct this poor dog's numerous problems. What a shame he had such a bad start in life too, so sad. Anyway, as Mini said, maybe you can find another rescue home nearby where you can find the perfect dog for you, maybe an older version of a WSS or a little cocker. It would be nice to know that this recent episode hasn't put you off for life, as everybody needs a loving companion, especially in your circumstances, and there are so many quiet easily handled dogs desperate to find homes. Why don't you keep your eye out on the Rescue Section on here,there may be just something that catches your eye in the near future? All the very best, I feel so very sorry for you both, but you have been right in making this decision, you cannot do anymore, even the behaviourist has told you that, so don't blame yourself. Take care.

So very sorry that Max hasn't worked out. Like I said Harry was a completely neglected rescue, could barely walk when I got him but it was thanks to my bitch that he turned out so well. I would have left him alone more after I had Kleine put down but his problem was his heart, he collapsed one day after I had been out without him, so he spent a lot of time in the car waiting for me at the shops, but he loved it. Harry was my first ever rescue, had mainly dobes in the past and they were so easy to train. WSS are, I was told, a particularly people-orientated dog, and they do love company. Max's agression was I am sure, bred of his fear of being left and his obvious non- properly cared for past. Don't be put off having another dog, although I have had to come to that decision myself. After 66 years of having my own dog, I started young ,lol, now like you arthritis is proving a problem but it is the first time in all those years I have been 'dogless'. A week after losing Harry I collected India from the local rescue, she's black, 8 yrs old, completely toothless and wasn't at the head of the cat queue when they were handing out good looks, but she is a real sweetie, I have just been telling her that with a bit of training I will be able to turn her into a dog !!! Oh, and for the past 30 years I've had cats as well as dogs which did make the decision a little easier Let us all know what you decide to do, and if its have a cat come on to the catpages and I'll see you there - All the best - Kath.

Thanks all - Breeder coming in the morning to pick Max up and he is to the vet monday to be 'done' and he will stay with her living outside with her dogs x 3 bitches - I know this is the best for him - time will tell with us as Helena said - maybe it is time to downsize - pity we weren't offerd an older dog - that we could have coped with April was 4 when she came slightly aloof but affable and gentle