I'm not sure whether breeders would in fact go 'underground' if the KC cracked down on health testing.

The way I see it is, ONLY health tested parents should be allowed to breed and their progency registered. If I was going to breed (which I'm not) - I would have no qualms about having my dog tested for health defects. I wouldn't want my dog to pass on anything detrimental to his puppies The whole purpose of breeding is supposed to be for the betterment of ones breed. What is the point of having a beautiful example lookswise, if your dogs genes carry all sorts of hereditary problems that would be passed on I don't know why any breeder wouldn't want their dogs checked out prior to breeding!!

If this was so, the likes of that lady with the Cavalier in that programme would never have been able to breed from that dog. In fact that very dog would never have been allowed to be shown, let alone become a Champ.

Why would breeders want to go 'underground'- it would serve no purpose? What grounds would they have for doing so, that they don't agree with having their dogs checked for hereditary defects prior to breeding? Well if not, I wouldn't want a puppy from such a breeder anyway!!! They would have little to gain that I could see.

What if in the future only dogs whose parents have been health-checked were allowed to show? In time the only dogs that could be made-up to Champ level would be from tested stock that was KC Reg. Any breeder refusing to health-check would not be allowed to KC Register their litter and in doing so none of them would be allowed to show?

Joe Public would surely rather then buy a pup from a litter that would be KC reg in the safe knowledge that BOTH parents were health tested? Not only that, it would be the only way to buy a dog that they could go onto show themselves should they wish to do so.

Very interesting program.
Hopefully some good can come of it, now more people are aware of problems, they will hopefully be asking/insisting for health tested dogs.

I know in my own breed HD is around (my own dog has it).
The muzzles on BM's also seem to be getting shorter, especially compared to years ago. (so problems will prob arise from that)
Teagan has a longer muzzle, and I've seen pictures from years ago of BM's, and Teagan is more to their type than now days 'type'. (Will try and find the pic on her pedigree)

You all know what Teagan looks like, and what other BM's look like, with very short muzzles.
This is one born in 1953 (from Teagans pedigree), note the slightly longer muzzle


And here is one born in 1927



VERY different from todays BM!
I must say, Teagan is inbetween now and then..her muzzle is long (not desired), but wide, if they start to go any shorter, there will be major problems.

Just watched the documentary on bbc iplayer so I'm a little bit behind everyone!

But I must say I was appalled by some of the breeders attitudes.
The fact that breeders of Ridgeback puppies down because they do not have the ridge left me digusted! I can't believe how huge the difference is in breeds nowadays!

Was very educational but very sad!

I just caught this today as well and i was just very saddened by the whole thing. The thought of healthy dogs being out down because they don't reach breed standard disturbs me. I was especially distressed that the CKCS who won the best in show event had the genetic problem and had been responsible for 26 litters after it was know. I can't see how that is doing anything to further the breed.

By going underground I simply meant it wont stop them breeding they'll register with another organisation and clain the KC are at fault. Wouldnt suprise me if they didnt use the tv show as an excuse.

I would ask the KC what evidence do that have that by having health regulations it would drive breeders underground. Do they have evidence? Or is it just their opinion? If it is an opinion is it worth anything if they can consider obviously malformed dogs (see the GSDS in the show) for championship. No, their opinion is not worth much. I would have thought they would only want responsible breeders anyway. The whole issue has got quite out of hand and they should pull their socks up before the government has to do it for them.

And another thing - what are they worried about it going underground for? People are already being conned and dogs are already ill and disabled. People don't knowingly buy a sick puppy and breeders don't advertise sick puppies. So it is already underground and underhand.

Hi pod the breed mean score in the UK is irrelevant to dogs bred in Germany, as it was German dogs I was refering to not UK ones. In the UK you will never get an accurate image of the state of the breeds hips, as there are litteraly thousands of pups born every year from unscored dogs, then you also have 1 particular vet who a lot of people use who recommends non submission if the score is over 12.
I do have 1 of the more extreme types he has a 0:0 score, although his croup is fairly steep when in normal stance his actual back looks the same as my 'middle of the road'' type.
soz cant remember everthing you have said will read proper tomorrow.
not sure who commented re Sue's message maybe she was refering to the Kirschental lines, the breeder works all his dogs on sheep, not sure which year it is in reference to.

Would be interesting to know how GSD hip status in Germany compares with other breeds... whether the same variabilty among the breeds occurs there. Also a comparison of show and working lines. Is there any such data?

Heres a CD with 550,000 dogs/bitchs hip dysplasia ratings
http://www.sv-shop.com/shop/product_...products_id=47 you can purchase data quarterly includes show and worklines
Online searchable breed value database http://www.schaeferhunde.de/site/index.php?id=688

This is the Danish Hip database but you need DKk reg number http://www.dansk-kennel-klub.dk/666

Soz do have more but cant find them at moment.