Because, as I have already said, the risk of failure is too great, because the consequences could be the death of my dog.

My dog is not perfect, neither am I. He is not an automaton, he is an animal, with a very strong prey drive and a huge amount of curiosity. He will jump first and ask questions later, so if we were living in the desert of S. California and a rattlesnake suddenly popped up and rattled at him, he would immediately pounce on it ... unless, hopefully, he had a huge aversion to doing this because of the e-collar he was wearing.

In other words, I might not have been on the ball, I might have been day dreaming thinking of wolves or whatever and not been quick enough to "oi" him or whatever.

Nice try BD !!

So if he does take his dogs walkies in the countryside where rattlesnakes are as you claim, please explain why he waited till now (the program) to use the collar? Surely exercising his dogs in such an area would of required "training" before this time?

Ok....last try......

No, your dog is not perfect....by using the e-collar in the way you are suggesting you would likely have a dog who would be alive but would be terrified in the process - You say you do not want this - but you would do this to your dog in order to 'save' his life....

Also.....(and I may have missed something here)....why has Daddy been ok for the first 14 years of his life, but now suddenly needs this aversion therapy?

Hmmm, not certain, but I'm pretty sure, around here at least, before snake aversion training they put off snake bite deaths to survival of the fittest, as a dog with sense gives snakes a wide berth.

In a way this brings up another interesting point - is it fair of us to "want" to keep a dog (any dog) where we know there are many dangerous snakes?

I think to be honest, if I lived in such an area I'd move to somewhere safer if I wanted to keep dogs.

If I could not do that, I'd very sadly give up keeping dogs

My view overall would be that I'd not keep a dog if it meant I had to use any shock on it (high level) for safety from snakes (not that I believe they give safety: I think they only give a false sense of security; as snakes can be trodden on accidentally, but that's by the by..... )

Wys
x

I have a friend in the US who uses dog parks, she is in Colorado and also uses trails and so on. I must ask her more about her views and what it is like over there. She never uses an ecollar I do know that, as she's dead against their use...

Wys
x

So sad

Wys
x

Like I said I haven't seen the episode, in the book he doesn't say in this instance what the setting was. The book says it was done by someone called Bob Kettle called in by him and Jada. He does mention on the Molly and the combine harvester one what the setting was and the brand of collar used, means nothing to me though.
He then has a section on the Dangers of E-Collars, so to be honest I fail to see how anyone thinks he advocates them for all and sundry and every little issue.
I'm staying out of the arguement simply because the same old stuff gets repeated over and over again by both sides, you all want the last word. My thoughts are my thoughts and wont be swayed by continuous repetions by either side of the fence.

For anyone actually interested the Dangers of E Collars in the book is as follows
As I have mentioned previously in the wrong hands and used incorrectly e-collars can have negative consequences. However, thanks to advances in the e collar, correctly using techniques that apply only low level stimulations have made it a useful aid in training and behaviour mosification for appropriate situations. The e collar should always be introduced to the dog so he understands what the stimulations mean, by finding the level that the dog just barely feels. It should not frighten or concern him but instead be just a new and different sensation he responds to. Without a gentle introduction to gain understanding you can ruin your relationship and possibly damage the all important trust between you and your dog. I have to stress again to use any tool effectively , we still need to be calm and assertive leaders. Trust and respect are the keystones of the human-dog relationship. If you don't have both then you really don't have a balanced relationship between you and your pet.
The most ineffective use of the e collar is to use it for compulsion. Yet there are people out there who practice methods like this. Why? because often, they produce faster though usually superficial and temporary results.
When I worked in a dog training facility that also trained guard and attack dogs, many of these methods that I now view as mostly dangerous and negative for dogs were used on a daily basis. The establishment was being paid a lot of money to get dogs to respond to commands in a two weeks time period, and so we staff members were told to do whatever it took to get those results in two weeks. That's one of the reasons I began to change my outlook on dogs and dog training. There is absolutely no point in giving an insecure dog a two week deadline to learn obedience. Every dog needs its own period of time to learn and become balanced- it's not something you can rush, and it's not something you can send your dog out to have done. As I've said before dogs are not appliances. True obedience froma a dog is something that requires patience and leadership and respect from the owner and handler. Although the electronic collar can often create fast results, again, unless the situation is a life and death one, it is a tool that is ripe for misuse and exploitation . Once again, if the energy behind an e-collar is angry, frustrated or any other negative emotion, your chances of getting a good long term result are close to zero.
As always I believe your choice of tool- your choice of anything that you do for animals you have taken into your care- is a matter between you and your conscience. If an e-collar still seems like the wrong tool for you, then thankfully there are many other options available. Whether or not you choose an e-collar, I recommend you find a professional whose methods and philosophies feel right for you, then get the correct hands on instruction before you attempt to influence your dogs behaviour.

As always Trouble, an excellent post from you.

Thank you very much indeed for the well-balanced, non-hysterical information on both sides of the coin.

My viewpoint still remains the same, but at least I now have a better picture of how the latest e-collars work, and why.

Thanks