I'm still not sure how Sallyinlancs perceives discipline and punishment or if she is taking her own experience of discipline and punishment as an example of how the dog would perceive it. Would be nice to know as it may make it possible to understand some of her and other peoples posts.

Pita, I should say discipline is correcting the dog's 'wrong' behaviour, (i.e. physically moving your dog [as in a sit position for example], nudging or a quick touch to grab the attention,) after he has disobeyed a command and then straight away giving him the opportunity to obey the command again. Discipline can be mental or physical. It may be uncomfortable but doesn't involve pain or fear.

For example: Dog chews slippers - Owner puts slippers in front of dog and says 'Leave it,' - Dog goes for slippers - Owner interrupts dog by touch and says 'Leave it,' - Owner repeats until dog leaves slippers and rewards dog for correct behaviour. End of discipline.

Punishment is the opposite of reward and means doing something bad to the dog when it does unwanted behaviour. It does not involve showing the dog what you WANT but is purely about what you DON'T want and offers no opportunity for positive learning IMO. Punishment always involves something negative and offers no positive alternative. It involves infliction of pain or fear, either mental or physical.

For example: Dog chews slippers - owner shouts at dog. End of punishment.

Not sure if I've explained this properly but hope it helps clear up where I'm coming from with the punishment/discipline definitions.

To me smacking a dog (most of the time) is a sign the owner has lost control. The e collar seems more to be used to help the owner gain control.

I did consider using on with Cassie before we started to work her. She ran full speed into a gate after a rabbit on a walk, badly cutting her face and missing her eye by cm.

I can't stop Cassie from chasing things its hard wired in her brain that if something darts past her field of vision she will run after it. There is little thought involved on her part, its all reaction, and me calling her had no effect at all. We had to work hard to get control over her after she had started to chase. A 'leave' command will put the brakes on now.

If we had been unable to do this i would have used an e collar to get control. My reason would have been this:

Which is worse A) Dog starts to chase doesn't listen to recall, receives shock stops looks around then owner recalls. Dog comes back and has reward for recall.

B) Dog starts to chase doesn't listen to recall, owner has no way other then voice to get the dogs attention. The dog could run out into a road or another gate! Or even worse catch the prey they are chasing. As someone pointed out on another thread this could be a pet cat or small dog.

My dog having a moment of slight discomfort is better then getting hurt, killed or me having to explain to someone that my dog killed there cat because i don't have control.

And then there is always a good old harness and lead.....no one gets hurt...

You can't have a dog on a lead and harness all the time.

What if they get out?

Or are just running round the garden and a cat jumps in?

Punishment can only be counter productive as it teaches the dog nothing except to be afraid of you or the means of punishment, or to become aggressive, inattentive or to run away, a totally unsatisfactory result if one is trying to train a dog.

Dogs do not speak English and can only obey you if they understand what it is you want, which is why positive training works so well, the dog remembers the action that resulted in a treat or kind attention, punishment is confusing at best or teaches the dog that it is best to ignore you altogether as it has found from experience an attempted to comply causes pain in the case of punishment or rejection in the case of discipline.

IMHO punishment is only used to relieve the feeling of the inadequate trainer and that in it’s self has something to recommend it but the only thing it will teach the dog is the you his owner and trainer is not to be trusted. Fortunately dogs do not bear grudges so occasional lack of discipline on behalf of the owner is not the end of the relationship, long term and constant physical correction will be.

On the other hand discipline if it is kept to the ignoring of the dog or to use your description remove the slippers and yourself from the dogs presence will tell the dog that what ever it did has not had the desired effect, the tit bit or the praise, and given a little time the dog will try something else and that behaviour may well be the required one and can be positively rewarded, and the wanted behaviour fixed.

Sorry PC has a duplication problem or the operator does

I agree. I don't punish my dogs. I don't see any advantage to it.

A dog spending the rest of it's life on-lead and never knowing the joys of a good free runaround?

I think in the long run that dog would RATHER have had some discipline that taught him better self-control than to have none and be a prisoner to the lead for the rest of its life.

So you have an ecollar on them at all times?
If there is a problem with cats then don't let the dog out in the garden on it's own...and make sure your dog doesn't get out......