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Location: West Sussex UK
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,044
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Originally Posted by
Adam Palmer
Emma, it doesn't matter why something was invented it matters what the animal feels.
Wilbar
Never denied the pp angle just consider the reinforcment angle more important.
Respectfully you don't use e collars for stock chasing I do. If what I did didn't work people wouldn't be paying me and I wouldn't be doing it. This does work!
Their shown the correct behaviour by being moved away (made to look away) with the lead, very clear and astonishingly effective, 3 hours from sheep killer to not interested.
The AVSAB are very invested in positive only training, my scientific education would disagree with that statement.
E collars have many benifits too, saving dogs lives, increased quality of life improved owner dog relationship ect.
Rune
Its not pain, I've said this many times but will repeat it as much as you want. The dog learns by repition that it is looking at the sheep that cause the sensation and looking away that stops it.
This is basic learning theroy. Just because everyone's keen on pr approaches doesn't mean the rest doesn't exist. If you don't think a dog can learn quickly and effectivly like this then a dog wouldn't learn quickly and effectivly from any method either.
It's not rubbish, its real life. My clients report being very happy with what I do for them (though most who I use an e collar with still can't tell when I'm using it).
CAD
E collars are way milder than that, like I say most people don't know when I'm using it. I like dogs enough to save and improve their lives.
WYSWIG
Once again basic scientific fact, pr and np go together as do pp and nr.
Video
Similar 9but not identical) to what I do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzcHXqS25MQ
Adam
Adam ~ I don't think I've ever said that ecollars don't work ~ all I've said is that I think it's an unnecessarily cruel & unethical way to train dogs. I don't agree with using pain & fear to teach a dog correct behaviour. I also don't think that using pain & fear is a very reliable way to extinguish ingrained, innate behaviours like prey drive & I've also said that using punishment as a first method of training dogs leads to unwanted emotional fallout & can lead to the development of other, perhaps even worse behaviours.
However you have still failed to respond to the other part of the AVSAB statement which says that in order for punishment to be effective, it must produce a strong fear response. The way that you say you use ecollars, i.e. only on the lowest setting for a "mild" sensation, either, a) doesn't produce a strong fear response, so won't be effective, or b) does produce a strong fear response, so
may work, but then you are causing fear & pain to the dog. You can't have it both ways ~ this is the science behind learning theory, not the way you are describing it. Your knowledge of learning theory is flawed & lacking in scientific reasoning if you think otherwise.
I am frankly astonished by your views on AVSAB's position statement! Are you really saying that your qualification & very limited experience in anyway competes with the huge wealth of qualifications, experience & knowledge of the AVSAB members? Of course AVSAB & many other accredited organisations like APBC, are invested in +ve reinforcement ~
because it works & because it is a kinder & more ethical way to train dogs!.