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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Thing is, why take them out to a dangerous area when he could find other areas to exercise them? If you love your dog you do not expose it to danger intentionally.

If he is bowling along with them in all that California heat, no dog is going to stop to check out a snake if they are trying to keep up with him - so they may end up simply running too near it accidentally, and end up dying from snake bite that way.
I can't even see the logic now of what he is doing....

Wys
x
wys, I don't know, I don't live in the States, I have no idea. I know they do things very differently over there in regards to dogs. They have dog parks where you can take your dog, I am not sure about the possibilities of areas where you are allowed to let your dogs off lead. It may be that in LA they have to be restricted to being on lead, and these desert areas are the only places where you can go, I don't know. I know if they were the only sorts of places where my dog could run free, then I would go to them, snakes or no snakes.
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Mid way is pretty painful on some of them. Aversion training means a real painful experience, so bad the dogs have a one-off learning situation because it's linked to their very survival.
If he used a mid way level, that was perhaps him being "kind" to Daddy but it's lower than is usually used as they want max impact.

Wys
x
I guess pain is relative with dogs, same as with us? I have a very low threshold for pain - not because I am being a wimp, but I just feel pain very very easily. My husband has a very high threshold, and can stand high levels of pain quite easily , not because he is macho, but it simply does not hurt as much we have deduced. Or perhaps he is a thick dumb**** !!!
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Borderdawn
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07-06-2009, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I don't think he did inflict it on just one. Trouble reminded me that there were several of Cesar's dogs - I think Popeye the pitbull was one of them - who showed far too much interest in the rattlesnake. I think for the sake of the programme, Daddy was used at the filmstar as it were. The implication being that the other were subjected to similar treatment, but I really don't know, I am guessing at that.

You continue to cast doubt on the fact that CM takes his dogs out into the "countryside" ? I think for countryside, we have to read "scrub" or desert, but for the sake of the argument lets say countryside. You obviously know him very well BD if you can categorically say what he does and does not do with his dogs. I think it is presumptuous in the extreme to cast doubt on what he does or not do with his dogs without finding out the facts first.
I do cast doubt, but you obviously have other proof to provide me with? Let me see your evidence of CM regularly exercising his dogs please.
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Jackie
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07-06-2009, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Jackbox, I couldn't agree more, but the fact remains that the fence was there in the form that I described - and you seemed to be casting nasturtiums at the accuracy of my statement. I took umbrage at that, I must say. I accept entirely that the farmer was/is out of order, but an apology is in order I feel Up to you, but it would be appreciated.

I have been riding off and on since I was 11, and have experience of battery operated electric fences. I would think that the shock one gets off one of these is equivalent to an e-collar on the very highest setting. It will not do any harm at all to a dog, however it would be very alarming at the least because the dog would not be "ready for it" or aware of what it was.
Not sure what you want an apology for

Assume you think I am saying you made it up about being burned on your backside......far from it , my point was to get such a burn will be due to the neglect of the farmer... having the voltage turned up so high/or incorrectly installed.

I remember my hubby having a whopping burn on his hands, when he drilled through live electricity cables which threw him across the room...many yrs ago

There is a voltage level , I think it is around 700 and that will be either from a mains or battery supply...and neither should be so high it actually burns someone.

Also a point to remember, mains fences, are not plugged into the mains electricity supply pylon..but should go through a saftey adapter.

Maybe this is why you where actually burned, if the farmer was doing a DIY job... which has been known to happen.
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Jackie
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07-06-2009, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Another good post Wys, with much food for thought. Knowing my dog though, I still think were we to live in an area populated my lethally venomous snakes, I may well have to resort to the expert help of someone who knew how to train with an e-collar.
But why would you do that... you say in your own words, that you have trained your dog to curb his prey drive.

He cant chase deer,he can chase cats, but he can chase rabbits.. if you have mastered such things without the use of e.collars already, could you not teach him to "leave" any snakes he came across using the methods you already use.

If you can educate him to differentiate what he can and cant chase...surely adding one more "No" to his list, will be easy for you.

But even then, with all the training and preventions in the world, would not stop the unexpected happening..i.e stepping on one without seeing it... no amount of e.collar training would help you there.
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
CM can never improve until he ditches the whole philosophy he has about the way dogs function and I can't see him doing this.
Sorry but I can't take seriously the people who say ''oh I used CMs methods and they worked for me '' but can't say exactly which methods specific to CM they used .

Being calm and confident with a dog and giving regular and frequent exercise (and for some of us who allow dog to stop and sniff mental stimulation too )are universal common sense training methods used by most trainers.

Asserting that dominance is the route of all problems/pulling a lead so tightly it is possible the supply of oxygen to the dogs brain is reduced so forcing a dog into submission/kicking a dog between the legs/ forcing a dog into submission by alpha rolling it /lifting a dog off its feet by its throat until its legs dangle are not normal methods of training for most civilised people who understand dogs but are all methods I have seen used by Cesar Milan .
Which of these methods do his followers here use?
(NB I can provide examples of the above)
Probably the best example I can give you Mini, is of Hal, because he was such a "difficult" dog. He had killed 5 of our neighbour's chickens over the years, not altogether his fault. We live on the edge of set-aside, running around the arable fields around here. These chickens keep escaping from the neighbour's garden, and hiding under the hedge. If they kept quiet all would be fine, but as we walked past with Hal, minding our own business, they would panic and start squawking their heads off as chickens do, and the inevitable would happen. We of course would keep him on the lead when we went past, after the first death, but then the months would go by, no chickens on the set aside, and we would be lulled into false security. Sometimes, a death had been caused by us completely forgetting that the ruddy chickens may be out, but as I say, not really Hal's fault.

I won't go into the details of what we tried, and failed, as this would ramble on for ever. When I first discovered CM, I was intrigued, and thought I would try his calm assertive energy on Hal. Having found that I could get him to walk to heel, on the lead, without pulling me into the next world, just by using Cesar's "tsst", "sshh" and "oi" and firm but short tugs and releases on the lead, I tried doing this off lead, but adding the finger snap. This proved so successful, we progressed onto the old Killing Fields and real live chickens - on the lead to start with, then off.

Success, total success. This would be about a year or so before Hal died, and from that moment to his untimely death, Hal never killed another chicken.

If you had known Hal, and how difficult he was, you too would have been pretty impressed Mini. All done with positive energy, staying calm, a few sharp sounds, and a lead.

No stringing up, no pinning, no electrocution
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
But why would you do that... you say in your own words, that you have trained your dog to curb his prey drive.

He cant chase deer,he can chase cats, but he can chase rabbits.. if you have mastered such things without the use of e.collars already, could you not teach him to "leave" any snakes he came across using the methods you already use.

If you can educate him to differentiate what he can and cant chase...surely adding one more "No" to his list, will be easy for you.

But even then, with all the training and preventions in the world, would not stop the unexpected happening..i.e stepping on one without seeing it... no amount of e.collar training would help you there.
These are all "prey" animals Jackbox. A snake is not a "prey" animal, it is something to be feared and therefore exterminated by the dog.

Also, if I get it wrong, Tai is not going to get killed by a rabbit or a cat. A deer, maybe, if it was a big one, but very unlikely. However, with a venomous snake like a rattle snake, the most likely victor of this "kill" would be my dog, not the snake !

Ipso facto, if all other training methods failed, I would consider getting an expert in to do some aversion therapy with an e-collar.
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
I do cast doubt, but you obviously have other proof to provide me with? Let me see your evidence of CM regularly exercising his dogs please.
No, BD, the onus is on YOU to provide the evidence, or otherwise. It is not me who is casting doubt, but YOU
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Not sure what you want an apology for

Assume you think I am saying you made it up about being burned on your backside......far from it , my point was to get such a burn will be due to the neglect of the farmer... having the voltage turned up so high/or incorrectly installed.

I remember my hubby having a whopping burn on his hands, when he drilled through live electricity cables which threw him across the room...many yrs ago

There is a voltage level , I think it is around 700 and that will be either from a mains or battery supply...and neither should be so high it actually burns someone.

Also a point to remember, mains fences, are not plugged into the mains electricity supply pylon..but should go through a saftey adapter.

Maybe this is why you where actually burned, if the farmer was doing a DIY job... which has been known to happen.
I dunno Jackbox !! I've forgotten !! Oh yes I know, I think you had tried to say that I was wrong about the high voltage sheep electric wire running over the top of that stile I so stupidly sat down on? Forget about it

OH pointed out to me that this wire was not wired straight into a pylon supply - if it had of been I would have been toast ! It was connected to a wooden telegraph pole carrying electricity to the stables across the road, and there was some sort of transformer device to reduce the current. OH explained it to me this morning, and about the difference between voltage and wattage, but TBH I can't remember what he said and I didn't understand it anyway !
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Meg
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07-06-2009, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Having found that I could get him to walk to heel, on the lead, without pulling me into the next world, just by using Cesar's "tsst", "sshh" and "oi" and firm but short tugs and releases on the lead, I tried doing this off lead, but adding the finger snap. This proved so successful, we progressed onto the old Killing Fields and real live chickens - on the lead to start with, then off.

Success, total success. This would be about a year or so before Hal died, and from that moment to his untimely death, Hal never killed another chicken.

If you had known Hal, and how difficult he was, you too would have been pretty impressed Mini. All done with positive energy, staying calm, a few sharp sounds, and a lead.

No stringing up, no pinning, no electrocution
Ok Gnasher, by your own addmission you can restrict a dogs high prey drive on and off the lead with walking to heel ,a snap of the fingers. a tsst or sshh, why would you ever need to use an e collar when a simple click of the fingers or noise should suffice ?
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