wys, I don't know, I don't live in the States, I have no idea. I know they do things very differently over there in regards to dogs. They have dog parks where you can take your dog, I am not sure about the possibilities of areas where you are allowed to let your dogs off lead. It may be that in LA they have to be restricted to being on lead, and these desert areas are the only places where you can go, I don't know. I know if they were the only sorts of places where my dog could run free, then I would go to them, snakes or no snakes.

I guess pain is relative with dogs, same as with us? I have a very low threshold for pain - not because I am being a wimp, but I just feel pain very very easily. My husband has a very high threshold, and can stand high levels of pain quite easily , not because he is macho, but it simply does not hurt as much we have deduced. Or perhaps he is a thick dumb**** !!!

I do cast doubt, but you obviously have other proof to provide me with? Let me see your evidence of CM regularly exercising his dogs please.

Not sure what you want an apology for

Assume you think I am saying you made it up about being burned on your backside......far from it , my point was to get such a burn will be due to the neglect of the farmer... having the voltage turned up so high/or incorrectly installed.

I remember my hubby having a whopping burn on his hands, when he drilled through live electricity cables which threw him across the room...many yrs ago

There is a voltage level , I think it is around 700 and that will be either from a mains or battery supply...and neither should be so high it actually burns someone.

Also a point to remember, mains fences, are not plugged into the mains electricity supply pylon..but should go through a saftey adapter.

Maybe this is why you where actually burned, if the farmer was doing a DIY job... which has been known to happen.

But why would you do that... you say in your own words, that you have trained your dog to curb his prey drive.

He cant chase deer,he can chase cats, but he can chase rabbits.. if you have mastered such things without the use of e.collars already, could you not teach him to "leave" any snakes he came across using the methods you already use.

If you can educate him to differentiate what he can and cant chase...surely adding one more "No" to his list, will be easy for you.

But even then, with all the training and preventions in the world, would not stop the unexpected happening..i.e stepping on one without seeing it... no amount of e.collar training would help you there.

Probably the best example I can give you Mini, is of Hal, because he was such a "difficult" dog. He had killed 5 of our neighbour's chickens over the years, not altogether his fault. We live on the edge of set-aside, running around the arable fields around here. These chickens keep escaping from the neighbour's garden, and hiding under the hedge. If they kept quiet all would be fine, but as we walked past with Hal, minding our own business, they would panic and start squawking their heads off as chickens do, and the inevitable would happen. We of course would keep him on the lead when we went past, after the first death, but then the months would go by, no chickens on the set aside, and we would be lulled into false security. Sometimes, a death had been caused by us completely forgetting that the ruddy chickens may be out, but as I say, not really Hal's fault.

I won't go into the details of what we tried, and failed, as this would ramble on for ever. When I first discovered CM, I was intrigued, and thought I would try his calm assertive energy on Hal. Having found that I could get him to walk to heel, on the lead, without pulling me into the next world, just by using Cesar's "tsst", "sshh" and "oi" and firm but short tugs and releases on the lead, I tried doing this off lead, but adding the finger snap. This proved so successful, we progressed onto the old Killing Fields and real live chickens - on the lead to start with, then off.

Success, total success. This would be about a year or so before Hal died, and from that moment to his untimely death, Hal never killed another chicken.

If you had known Hal, and how difficult he was, you too would have been pretty impressed Mini. All done with positive energy, staying calm, a few sharp sounds, and a lead.

No stringing up, no pinning, no electrocution

These are all "prey" animals Jackbox. A snake is not a "prey" animal, it is something to be feared and therefore exterminated by the dog.

Also, if I get it wrong, Tai is not going to get killed by a rabbit or a cat. A deer, maybe, if it was a big one, but very unlikely. However, with a venomous snake like a rattle snake, the most likely victor of this "kill" would be my dog, not the snake !

Ipso facto, if all other training methods failed, I would consider getting an expert in to do some aversion therapy with an e-collar.

No, BD, the onus is on YOU to provide the evidence, or otherwise. It is not me who is casting doubt, but YOU

I dunno Jackbox !! I've forgotten !! Oh yes I know, I think you had tried to say that I was wrong about the high voltage sheep electric wire running over the top of that stile I so stupidly sat down on? Forget about it

OH pointed out to me that this wire was not wired straight into a pylon supply - if it had of been I would have been toast ! It was connected to a wooden telegraph pole carrying electricity to the stables across the road, and there was some sort of transformer device to reduce the current. OH explained it to me this morning, and about the difference between voltage and wattage, but TBH I can't remember what he said and I didn't understand it anyway !

Ok Gnasher, by your own addmission you can restrict a dogs high prey drive on and off the lead with walking to heel ,a snap of the fingers. a tsst or sshh, why would you ever need to use an e collar when a simple click of the fingers or noise should suffice ?