Have to disagree here Wildmoor. Not sure if you're saying that breeding for good hips has changed the structure of the GSD, but evidence accross the breeds indicates that dogs of a more normal contruction, like the Spitz breeds, lends itself to better hip status. The GSD fraternity are undoubtedly at the forefront of health testing, nevertheless, the GSD has a Breed Mean Score far higher than many other breeds. This should be some indication that there is more to it than just selection based on hip score and maybe the exaggerated construction is a contributing factor.

The Exaggerated slope of the croup is an unavoidable consequence of breeding for the steeply sloping topline and the topline itself facilitates the impression of another obsession in the GSD world, high wither.

The whole structure is designed around the showring feature of 'long forward reach' and to achieve this, the forelegs have remianed relatively long while the rear end crouches to increase hind angulation... a sort of concertina effect. And here lies the reason for the eternal problem of over size in the breed. Naturally, a taller dog will have impressive height at withers and a longer forward reach than a smaller dog that may well be better constructed.


A longish rear pastern (the hock is the joint above the rear pastern) is natural construction in the dog. It's not particularly attractive in the show dog, hence it is perceivced as undesirable. The reason GSDs appear weak in the hock joint is because of the excessive rear angulation.

Carpet is not a particularly difficult surface for a dog. If it causes unsteadiness, then there's more going on than just unfamiliarity.

The fact that dogs of this construction type can pass working disciplines and gait for 12 miles really says very little about their fitness for work and is more an indication of good training and stoic charcter. As I mentioned in the other thread, there is a three legged Lucher doing very well in agility. It's remarkable what stoicism dogs will show to overcome disabilities.

A real test would be to work in the field. I'm sure a working shepherd dog would cover multiples of 12 miles in rough terrain day in day out. Also hunting hounds, sled dogs etc.

To see construction that is designed for endurance trotting combined with agility, you need look no further than the original dog, the wolf. He is a trotter par exellence and covers hundreds of miles at a time. He has long legs, moderate angulation and long (compared to show dogs) rear pasterns. The topline is more or less level, normal croup, in fact no exaggeration of any kind. This could in fact be describing the original GSD.... but of course modern GSD breeders know better than v Stephanitz and Mother Nature



I think with the history and knowledgable breeders involved in GSDs, they have the facilities to be at the forefront of showdog reform. We can only hope that the 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed' programme will be seen around the world and play a part in any changes the SV consider.

That explanation is very clear, thank you!

I'm sorry, but me and my partner turned it off after the young boxer was featured, I was sobbing after listening to the dog scream (tears are forming now just thinking about it). I can see that the owners clearly loved him but my PERSONAL thoughts are that if I was in their shoes I would rather end his misery. Sorry if that offends, but that is my opinion!

Leeza.

The afternoon before the programme went out I sat on a bench close to a cavalier and noted the small head, at first thought it a pup till I got talking to owner and said to Pete how much xmaller they are now!!!

I like Madmare used to breed and show many moons ago and gave up for same reasons different breed, we were into terriers and when I went with a Crufts winner! to another breeder who then began hacking at one dogs ears as they were not correct height and would not stand correctly I was sickened and from then on came out of showing, more reasons too, however I missed it so much so decided on a breed which had nothing done to it at all to show a pure natural breed, bought two from top breeder! and have had few good years with them they are gorgeous dogs, Willo qualified for Crufts, however after lots of thought decided not to attend as its not changed, genuine dogs not winning and so on too much nastiness in the dog world, so we have 3 pets here now and its great, still miss the shows at times but feel its best not to participate, amybe local RSPCA shows only. I have noticed Goldies turned from a lovely golden colour to white just so that breeders can sell as general public love the white ones, grr, same in Whippets they have grown so tall.

Well really disappointed as our Willo a gorgeous example of a Japanese Spitz now 1/2" too tall to show, they have decided to change the breed rules, eh!!!! So that us definately not showing again, I will no doubt continue to watch Crufts but will always wonder who the real winner would be as usually dont trust the winner!! Sad isnt it to have to be like this.

Actually always thought the KC uppity and us normal members who pay lots of money to them not allowed in all areas of lounges etc in their posh building, oh I have been so stupid paying them money over the years no more though!!

How about starting again, a genuine Kennel Club one for the genuine dog lovers, one day maybe eh, anyway loved everyones comments some really interesting and food for thought, x

Thankyou Pod, that makes lots of sense
I was just thinking if you want a dog to run for miles why change it from the wolf who has evolved to do just that
mother nature knows far better than we ever can

The dog was having an epipeptic fit of which the scream was part . I doesn't necessarily mean it was in agony . A lot of people do that when they have a fit too and don't come round from it and say how sore it was

Indeed. It is involuntary and not believed to be associated with pain.

to be honest all this brought to light has been a good thing it will prepare pet owners to do more research on the breed

the sad part is i was chatting to a well know breeder this morning she is a good one and has always had the breeds interest at heart she recently MRI scanned all corners of her kennel with good results what a shame that wasn;t shown just to restore a little faith in the breed x

I hope that once the sensationalism dies down the general public will go on the internet and reasearch what health problems are behind there chosen breed before they buy a puppy and insist on both parents been health tested clear before the part with their money. imho thats the only way this will stop people breeding unhealth tested dogs.
If we shut the KC down it will give byb and pf more excuses at least there trying and any health tests are written on the reg forms of the puppies.
With regards epilepsy showing the boxer was tragic but over the top, epilepsy in dogs is a tradgedy but can e controlled with Phenobarbitone and most dogs live happy and fullfilling lives, I'm not condoning breeding from dogs who fit but speaking of welshies, the breed clubs have spent thousands on reasearch which is on going and were finding it impossible to pin down the genetic marker. In somecase a dog has sired two or three litters and then produced a solitary fitter and the dams parents have no history down the line either

I think what we need to learn from this is health testing is not the be all and end all, whilst important, Inbreeding and linebreeding is what needs to stop and is a far greater problem than breeding from unhealth tested parents.