don't believe everything you read!

sorry but I thought that this was a thread about pit bulls? that dog was not a pit bull! FACT! if you want to belive the press or merseyside police, who told the world it was a pit bull, thats upto you! but please don't forget it was merseyside police who took away none pit bulls and claimed that they were pit bulls, so I think that there abilaty to judge what is and what isn't a pit is under question! I on the other hand have had first hand experiance of pits (in the U.S. and as a child, my auntie had two) and that dog! was no pit bull! please Nicci please don't think that I'm having a go at you. I can understand that a lot of people take what the press say as the truth. I think we all have to understand that the press leave out things or add there own twist on things just to sell the papers we read.

Seeing as no picture has ever been published of 'that' dog then I suppose we never will know but none of the family that were interviewed have said it wasn't a pitbull.
How do you know for a fact that the dog you saw them walking was the one that killed Ellie?
Becky

Are you an expert on Pit Bull Terriers?

and wasnt it the same force that returned dogs having assessed them and found them NOT to be Pit Bull type? suggesting they do know a little of what they are talking about.

Again you state your expertise, yet you critisise the police who told you the same of your dog, and they were correct!
Dawn.

Whatever the dog was the facts speak for themselves, I think it can be said for certain it was a dangerious dog and sufficiently like a PBT to be defined as one.

I also understand it was a one year old male so probably not even fully mature. What should be asked is where did the owner get this dog from ?

The dog that killed Ellie wasnt a pitbull. No pitbull weighs in at 6 stone. Merseyside police were calling it a pitbull in earlier reports, then changed the description to "pitbull type". When questioned about it on the live webchat, they said it was "a type", and when asked why earlier they had stated it was a pitbull and had dna tests done, they admitted there was no such test, in theory, and the dog was now deemed "of type". The dog was very obviously a mastiff type cross.

Those of you who still choose to believe the dog was a pitbull, will have to then admit that any pitbull of that size was given drugs such as steroids, pumped into him at an alarming rate, to cause that amount of growth, at that age. So, even if the dog WAS a pitbull, do you then admit that the dog was pumped full of body altering (and mind altering too) drugs, so therefore wasnt even in the same mindset as a healthy average pitbull??

Because if you do admit that fact, you,ll then have to admit that, as in most cases of fatal dog attacks, it was HUMAN intervention at fault.

i thought it had already been said that the dog was on steroids and being 'pumped up'??? Or have I imagined that?
I thought it was also the case that the dog was anxious due to fireworks etc????

Pit Bulls have varying weights, every standard I read states a different weight seems there's no 'set' weight no minimum or no maximum certain sites say 30-60Lbs others state 85Lbs plus, more state these dogs can be anything upto 100+ just take a look and read for yourself.

I've seen American websites that show some awfully big Pitties.

Theres no hard evidence pointing towards the fact the dog was NOT a Pit Bull, only statements saying that it was - until I have hard evidence shoved under my nose stating it was not, I will belive the dog to be a Pit Bull.

I don't think what happened should be forgotton, Ellie should not be forgotton and it's an incident that definatly should not be brushed under the carpet, for the sake of poor child!

Of course they come in weights over 6 stone, how do you think they match them against eachother for fighting? Weight is exactly how they do it, like boxing weights.
Dawn.

Firstly I am no pit bull expert, although as stated previously, I have come into contact with a few in my time, some here in my childhood, and some in the states where my auntie now lives and breeds pits. It was also said earlier in this thread that, until recently there was no registration for pit bulls? Well the UKC, in the states, has registered them for over 100years. Also the weight has come to be an issue? No pit should be over 50lbs for a bitch and 60lbs for a dog and a lot of breeders in the states would say this was to high! My auntie prefers 40lbs for a bitch and 45-50lbs for a dog in top condition. But upper most in all good breeders is the dogs temperament please see the bit in the standard about there uselessness as guard dogs! Lol for those of you who would like to read the official standard for pit bulls I have put it below. Oh and just to point out Merseyside police didn’t give back all the dogs out of the kindness of there hearts they were ordered to do so by a judge!

AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER
Official U.K.C. Breed Standard
Revised October 21, 2004

History
Sometime during the nineteenth century, dog fanciers in England, Ireland, and Scotland began to experiment with crosses between Bulldogs and Terriers, looking for a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the Bulldog. The result was a dog that embodied all of the virtues attributed to great warriors: strength, indomitable courage, and gentleness with loved ones. Immigrants brought these bull and terrier crosses to the United States. The American Pit Bull Terrier's many talents did not go unnoticed by farmers and ranchers who used their APBTs for protection, as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions. Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Tracking, Agility, Protection, and Weight Pulls, as well as Conformation.

The United Kennel Club was the first registry to recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier. U.K.C. founder C. Z. Bennett assigned U.K.C. registration number 1 to his own APBT, Bennett's Ring in 1898.

General Appearance
The American Pit Bull Terrier is a medium-sized, solidly built, short-coated dog with smooth, well-defined musculature. This breed is both powerful and athletic. The body is just slightly longer than tall, but bitches may be somewhat longer in body than dogs. The length of the front leg (measured from point of elbow to the ground) is approximately equal to one-half of the dog's height at the withers. The head is of medium length, with a broad, flat skull, and a wide, deep muzzle. Ears are small to medium in size, high set, and may be natural or cropped. The relatively short tail is set low, thick at the base and tapers to a point. The American Pit Bull Terrier comes in all colors and color patterns. This breed combines strength and athleticism with grace and agility and should never appear bulky or muscle-bound or fine-boned and rangy.

Characteristics
The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed's natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.

The American Pit Bull Terrier has always been capable of doing a wide variety of jobs so exaggerations or faults should be penalized in proportion to how much they interfere with the dog's versatility.

Head
The APBT head is unique and a key element of breed type. It is large and broad, giving the impression of great power, but it is not disproportionate to the size of the body. Viewed from the front, the head is shaped like a broad, blunt wedge. When viewed from the side, the skull and muzzle are parallel to one another and joined by a well defined, moderately deep stop. Supraorbital arches over the eyes are well defined but not pronounced. The head is well chiseled, blending strength, elegance, and character.

SKULL - The skull is large, flat or slightly rounded, deep, and broad between the ears. Viewed from the top, the skull tapers just slightly toward the stop. There is a deep median furrow that diminishes in depth from the stop to the occiput. Cheek muscles are prominent but free of wrinkles. When the dog is concentrating, wrinkles form on the forehead, which give the APBT his unique expression.

MUZZLE - The muzzle is broad and deep with a very slight taper from the stop to the nose, and a slight falling away under the eyes. The length of muzzle is shorter than the length of skull, with a ratio of approximately 2:3. The topline of the muzzle is straight. The lower jaw is well developed, wide and deep. Lips are clean and tight.

Faults: Snipey muzzle; flews; weak lower jaw.

TEETH - The American Pit Bull Terrier has a complete set of evenly spaced, white teeth meeting in a scissors bite.

Fault: Level bite.

Serious Faults: Undershot, or overshot bite; wry mouth; missing teeth (this does not apply to teeth that have been lost or removed by a veterinarian).

NOSE - The nose is large with wide, open nostrils. The nose may be any color.

EYES - Eyes are medium size, round to almond-shaped, and set well apart and low on the skull. All colors are equally acceptable except blue, which is a serious fault. Haw should not be visible.

Serious Faults: Bulging eyes; both eyes not matched in color; blue eyes.

EARS - Ears are high set and may be natural or cropped without preference. If natural, semi-prick or rose are preferred. Prick or flat, wide ears are not desired.

Neck
The neck is of moderate length and muscular. There is a slight arch at the crest. The neck widens gradually from where it joins the skull to where it blends into well laid-back shoulders. The skin on the neck is tight and without dewlap.

Faults: Neck too short and thick; thin or weak neck; ewe neck; dewlap.

Forequarters
The shoulder blades are long, wide, muscular, and well laid back. The upper arm is roughly equal in length to the shoulder blade and joins it at an apparent right angle.

The forelegs are strong and muscular. The elbows are set close to the body. Viewed from the front, the forelegs are set moderately wide apart and perpendicular to the ground. The pasterns are short, powerful, straight, and flexible. When viewed in profile, the pasterns are nearly erect.

Faults: Upright or loaded shoulders; elbows turned outward or tied-in; down at the pasterns; front legs bowed; wrists knuckled over; toeing in or out.

Body
The chest is deep, well filled in, and moderately wide with ample room for heart and lungs, but the chest should never be wider than it is deep. The forechest does not extend much beyond the point of shoulder. The ribs extend well back and are well sprung from the spine, then flattening to form a deep body extending to the elbows. The back is strong and firm. The topline inclines very slightly downward from the withers to a broad, muscular, level back. The loin is short, muscular and slightly arched to the top of the croup, but narrower than the rib cage and with a moderate tuck-up. The croup is slightly sloping downward.

Hindquarters
The hindquarters are strong, muscular, and moderately broad. The rump is well filled in on each side of the tail and deep from the pelvis to the crotch. The bone, angulation, and musculature of the hindquarters are in balance with the forequarters. The thighs are well developed with thick, easily discerned muscles. Viewed from the side, the hock joint is well bent and the rear pasterns are well let down and perpendicular to the ground. Viewed from the rear, the rear pasterns are straight and parallel to one another.
Faults: Narrow hindquarters; hindquarters shallow from pelvis to crotch; lack of muscle; straight or over angulated stifle joint; cow hocks; sickle hocks; bowed legs.

Feet
The feet are round, proportionate to the size of the dog, well arched, and tight. Pads are hard, tough, and well cushioned. Dewclaws may be removed.

Fault: Splayed feet.

Tail
The tail is set on as a natural extension of the topline, and tapers to a point. When the dog is relaxed, the tail is carried low and extends approximately to the hock. When the dog is moving, the tail is carried level with the backline. When the dog is excited, the tail may be carried in a raised, upright position (challenge tail), but never curled over the back (gay tail).

Fault: Long tail (tail tip passes beyond point of hock).

Serious faults: Gay tail (not to be confused with challenge tail); kinked tail.

Disqualification: Bobbed tail.

Coat
The coat is glossy and smooth, close, and moderately stiff to the touch.

Faults: Curly, wavy, or sparse coat.

Disqualification: Long coat.

Color
Any color, color pattern, or combination of colors is acceptable, except for merle.

Disqualification: Merle

Height and Weight
The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy.

Gait
The American Pit Bull Terrier moves with a jaunty, confident attitude, conveying the impression that he expects any minute to see something new and exciting. When trotting, the gait is effortless, smooth, powerful, and well coordinated, showing good reach in front and drive behind. When moving, the backline remains level with only a slight flexing to indicate suppleness. Viewed from any position, legs turn neither in nor out, nor do feet cross or interfere with each other. As speed increases, feet tend to converge toward center line of balance.

Faults: Legs not moving on the same plane; legs over reaching; legs crossing over in front or rear; rear legs moving too close or touching; rolling; pacing; paddling; sidewinding; hackney action; pounding.

Disqualifications
Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid. Viciousness or extreme shyness. Unilateral or bilateral deafness. Bobbed tail. Albinism. Merle. Long coat.

Note: Although some level of dog aggression is characteristic of this breed, handlers will be expected to comply with U.K.C. policy regarding dog temperament at U.K.C. events.

And finally NO ONE is suggesting that what happened to that poor child should be brushed under the carpet.

I appreciate that everyone has opinions on this subject some of which I wont agree with but I am of the opinion that any dog has the tools to do serious damage especially to a child, But more so badly bred dogs!, Be they pit bulls or any other breed.

So in answer to the question at the top of this thread, are pit bulls dangerous? Yes they are!

So are we going to start a thread asking the same question about EVERY other breed of dog? Because to save time my answer would be the same for every single one!

P.S. sorry if this seem like a rant!(Again lol) but I was just trying to answer a question!