Mine have fantastic recall too, they have even been called away when a real fight has broken out and still responded instantly, that's surely the whole point of training. Yes it's great but there isn't any one method that works, my methods work for me and if others use methods that work for them that's fine. I don't feel the need to disrespect the methods others choose to use and will never understand the over the top reaction CM causes amongst some people.

Touble
You will see in my post I say - IMO - in my oppinion
I have not watched much of cesar because as I explained with the duck method I was really sickend by what I saw
I have not read his books - and I am sure they are better bcause I know things have to be hyped up for TV

To avoid confusion - my dog is not food motivated - he more often than not works for a 'good boy' the clicker and the treat bag come out when I am teaching new things - he is happy to be learning something new
Sometimes he forgets even to eat the treat he is so focused to learn the next bit


Yes for behaviours like 'off' and simple things like that my dog is simply trained and then given clear instructions - what I mean by figuring things out is moer complex things like learning which way to go into weaves or 101 things to do witha box - then I like to have him figure out the correct thing for himself because when he figures out the behaviour then he is much happier and faster to respond

for example - my friends were nervous of their children meeting Ben (silly people had not socalised thier children to dogs) so I free-shaped in the 10 min before they came a behaviour where Ben ran over to a mat and lay down
When they came in the door I said "mat" and he ran straight over there and lay down till I called him over

Sure I could have 'claimed the space' between the dog and the kid, made pssst noises every time he went for a sniff - or just shut him out of the room-but I wanted to say hello to my friends so it was much easier to have a behaviour that he understood - and he was more than happy to show his trick off to my friends - and they saw a well behaived dog and were happy to let their children play with him
Yup there is 1000 ways that situation could have been trained for - but for me and my dog that was the easiest (he knows not to pester strangers into the house - i just wanted something more for these people)

TBH i dont care how anyone trains their dog just so long as they love them and treat them with kindness - and most importently are doing something with their dog

I think the strong reactions from other people come in agains cesar because we believe that some of the things he does to the dogs overstresses them
I have not said anyone here is cruel to their dog - or bullies their dog
Because like any training method I dont think anyone uses anyones methods 100%

I expect that people using the pssst and space claiming and stuff their dog responds to the funny noise or where you are pretty quickly and you reward them for that behaivior
correct me if I am wrong but does anyone on here have to keep repeating the psssst till the dog is cowering on the floor scared to move??
If not then the noise is pretty much just a non reward or intteruption noise
Myself I use a ahhahhh to tell the dog that was not what I wanted - not in a nasty way
my problem with what i have seen with cesar is he takes it too far

and what alpha training method was he using to goad the dog and actually let it bite a live duck?

The thing with the duck, I haven't seen the program but he covers it in the second book. Involved the Grogans of Marley and me fame and their new dog Gracie. They have 2 acres in the country on which the dog could roam at will all day, with no actual walks with the owners. They keep chickens for eggs and as pets which free roam. Gracie had already killed 2 of them I believe. They wanted to keep the chickens and teach Gracie not to eat them. Gracie like Marley wasn't obedient and she was obsessed with hunting, She spent all day stalking and eating small animals and birds. She then ate 2 chickens, the Grogans put an invisible fence around the coop to keep Gracie away. However Gracie stalked around the fence constantly.
Gracie like Marley had no rules and regulations, and no structured exercise. Gracie by the way was bred from hunting stock. He initially spent a day with the Grogans showing them how to be "pack leader" etc., but left them with the task of finding a professional hunting trainer who could teach them and the dog how to channel her hunting instincts into non lethal outlets.
9 out of 10 of the trainers they contacted said it couldn't be done. They then found Missy Lemoi an obedience and field trial trainer. It was Missy Lemoi who introduced the duck instead of a chicken to Gracie in order to desensitise her, apparently ducks are less excitable. The went back to basics and taught all her obedience commands with the duck present, the goal being for gracie to ignore the duck at all times. She also taught the family to use Gracies instincts and created a giant game of hide and seek, etc. After 5 weeks of working with Missy the Grogans invited Cesar back for a follow up visit and progress report. I guess this is where the camera crew came in.
6 months after they began Training with Missy in field and trial work they have completed the intermediatel level and are starting on the advanced level. As for the small animal attacks they're history. Result I would say.

Trouble, as usual you have summed things up very neatly and in a nutshell. CM isn't for every one, and probably not for every dog, but for my type of dog ... northern breed ... it WORKS. End of story. I have listed the huge steps we have advanced since having Tai, just over 2 weeks ago. I place all the credit for this at Cesar's door.

Tai has a high prey drive, higher probably than Hal's even, which means it is immensely high. We live in the country surrounded by sheep, chickens that frequently escape from the garden and roam the set aside, horses, pigs all just asking to be chased by a dog with a high prey drive. For the safety of the animals and my dog, it is essential that when we are caught off guard, he doesn't end up killing chickens or chasing sheep. Thanks to Cesar we are well on the way, if not there, to ensuring the safety of all livestock in our area.

The alternative is to keep him on a long line until, if ever, we had managed to stop him chasing livestock. This to my mind is far crueller than the calm, assertive training aka Cesar Millan. His methods are phenomenally quick with Tai, meaning that the dog virtually from day one has nothing but stimulating, long, happy and healthy walks with his new owners ... off the lead. Hurrah !!

Glad it's going so well
I have Milan the 8month Dobermann that I took on a week ago. She had no commands, didn't know how to play or interact with others, and was strangely very subdued. Although very good at sticking up for herself, and very wary around small dogs especially. She's been through an awful lot in her short life and is amazingly very gentle, but was just sort of sad. We have achieved amazing results in just a week, she knows sit, down, wait , leave it, recall is fab, is learning to chase the ball on a rope, plays with dogs large and small, She gets lots of fun exercise out in the open air and she's gaining in confidence everyday in every way. So far it's all good.

BenMcfuzzylugs - About the 'pssst' noise - you don't have to use that noise. You can use any noise you want (like the ahahaha that you use). You're right it is a distraction noise - well that's how I see it anyway.

CM said that he chooses to you the 'pssst' noise because that's the noise his mum used to use with him when he was being naughty. I can't say I've ever seen him do it to the point where the dog was cowering on the floor though. I definately don't go to that extreme

Well, I have been watching CM for quite a long time now and find I have seen most, if not all, of the episodes, and I have NEVER seen a dog cower from the psst noise.

I find "ah ah " works the best with Tai, without saying his name, just "ah ah". Never seen him cower either

I sometimes "AH ah", I sometimes "Tssst" but "Oi" is my favourite. They don't cower they just stop what they're doing and look at me for guidance.

I think the only reason a dog would ever cower because of the use of those sounds is if it was followed up by something horrible that someone did because the noise it's self is just a distraction or something to get the attention - I use similar sounds like that and the dogs just know it means for them to pay attention and that their will probably be a command coming

Absolutely Mys, whether you psst, shh, oi, ay, or ah, they are all short interjections, made to gain attention.

Methinks there is a lot of exaggerations made re CM and his methods