Don't worry mate! I don't understand it either! It is hubby who's the clever clogs in our family ... I am only quoting what he tells me!

Don't worry, Dibby, I didn't think you did. I just wanted to make that extra clear, especially for our OP.

Heh... I am reminded of a time my husband laughed uproariously when I called out WHAT ARE YOU DOING AND STOP IT!!! He said it was the most 'Mum' thing he'd ever heard.

I'm looking forward to your post!

I used to stick my head out of the window and call out Kim (my cat now at the Bridge) Kim You out there ? Do you want your dinner? The only word she understood out of all that was Dinner. It used to make my neighbours laugh .


Yes, meaness has no place in dog training and sometimes life's a bitch. As i have already said before , I'm not saying you must never ever not be firm or serious.
I've copied and pasted my original text at the bottom of this reply.


What would I do (or did) ? I would baby/dog proof the house. There's a huge difference between raising your voice /shouting at a dog in an emergency and using it frequently as part of a training plan .

For example , (I'm not saying anyone here does this ) a lot of people train their pup/dogs to leave the kitchen by doing the dramatic firm point to the door and OUT , of course it generally works even though the pup has no idea what Out means , because the owner has intimidated the pup enough to make it want to leave the room anyway.
The owner hasn't tried a way of teaching the dog to leave the room in a more PR way in the first place and I think thats a shame .
Again , once the dog has been taught what OUT means and doesnt comply , then yes I would use a firmer tone.


When you say a dog will understand he is not being punished, dogs arent that complex , they live very much in the moment . they react to events happening around them and they learn by the consequneces of their actions , they dont think about what is punishment , they just know what they dont like and what scares them .
If you give them a time out they're not going to spend that time thinking I've been bad like a human might. Dogs dont contemplate their navel.


Those instances above , being confident in the way of not panicking or getting anxious and upset is good .
Shoving a pill down a dogs throat , why ? you put it in some paste or pop it in their mouth and then rub the throat to make themn swallow, you practise vets exams at home and at the vets you reward then or distract them with a treat . I've pulled thorns out of dogs pads, which is very painful . PR wont work at all times but in my experience being stern doesnt either and there are times when you will need a muzzle or you leave the vet and nurse to do their job.

Yes you do need to be firm sometimes .
Training a dog using positive reinforcement doesn't mean you are permissive or you dont teach bounderies. When you talk about firm bounderies , to me that means being consistant and persistant in getting your dog to do or not do what you want.
I body block my dogs sometimes for example , if I dont want them to sit on my lap , i just put my arm across and not look at them or say anything and do this until they stop trying .
I've just had vision of a mal sitting on a soemone's lap

ETA This is just a general observation for anyone interested , I'm sure we've all noticed this! Dogs often avoid or evade their owners in some instances not because they are intimidated or scared but because of the end consequence , they dont want a bath or nails clipped.

My quote from previous post

"When someone first has a puppy or new dog, they have to earn trust and respect. While he is learning and adapting to his new surroundings , it is very easy to intimidate him. One minute, they are being nice and the next not so nice without warning , it makes the owner unpredictable to the pup and can make him uncertain of his carer . Pups need certainty to feel safe , its hard to relax or feel safe with someone who you never know what they are going to do or how they are going to act, this is true for us humans too .
I'm not saying never raise your voice or sound firmer or sterner, I do this once I'm sure my dogs knows what I want."

I'm enjoying the reading. I have little else to add, but keep it coming, everyone. So much experience, good advice, and knowledge all wrapped up in one little thread. As for the scientific stuff, I'll leave that for the professionals.

I agree .. i am really enjoying this. Ive only got access on my galaxy at the moment and i find it very difficult to take everything in as a consequence, bit i know im going to like it. Great stuff guys!!

All well said, Dibby! I would like to highlight your point about dogs living in the moment. You're absolutely right. They do-- they do have long memories, and they won't forget past kindnesses or cruelties. Even after more than 6 years, Taji will still perk up at the sight of a red-haired lady with her hair in a ponytail, and I'm sure he's remembering the person who particularly loved and cared for him for all the months he spent in kennels. And he still won't suffer to be handled by his collar. Someone has mistreated him, and that's not something he'll forget.

But yes-- dogs live in and for the moment, and that can be a wonderful wake up call to us humans, who dwell on things until the memories are tattered shreds of themselves that we would barely even recognise if we looked at them with our former minds. I have a lot of thoughts about this (okay, I admit it: I'm a philosophy Ph.D in Philo o'Mind and have a penchant for ethology reading, which really only means I have far more questions than anything else and no sure answers about anything at all) but I'm pretty sure that our language-enabled brains are mostly blessing, but a little bit curse. We can't see in the immediate now, the way dogs do. We're always in a narrative, but dogs are not. Their thinking is different. This does not mean they're some weird alien species we can never understand. Dogs and humans understand each other better than any other cross-species interrelationships-- I think I understand dogs better than I do most humans. Frankly, most humans baffle me. Dogs have taught me so much and I'll be well dead of old age (hopefully!) before I've learned a tenth of what I'd like to.

So yeah, back to practical reality: a firm but gentle hand and a stern voice, right now, when it's needed, is something every dog owner should know. Not all dogs respond to the same things! If I need to hold Taji still for a vet exam (he is a total wussbag) the best way for him is for me to put my hand under his collar with my palm flat against his neck. With Berkeley, he's generally fine but likes a hug if they want to shove a thermometer up his bum. Habibi does not like to be handled by people she doesn't know, but will put up with it if she's firmly told to hold still, and she certainly appreciates the reward she gets afterwards.

As for the pills down the throat... well, it has to happen sometimes, doesn't it? It turns out that Taji is about the easiest dog in the world to get a pill into, but the kennel cough vaccine... well, we must have sprayed the entire room with it before the vet finally handed the syringe over to me. He'll let me squirt goo up his nose-- but very grudgingly! He truly deserved his carrot after that!

Thanks Dibby-- I really like reading your posts.

That's a lovely post , I can see you have put a lot of thought into it and can only agree with what you have said.

I think our relationship with dogs shows how adaptable and intelligent dogs can be . I thnk they learn more about us than what we learn about them but yes we can learn to understand them.
You learn things growing up with animals,
they were my friends the same as human children were my friends and perhaps unusual for the time pets were allowed to sleep in or on our beds and my working life was mainly with animals.
Depsite having that experience and knowing and recognising how animals behave and able to predict what the outcome would be in a situation of a dog meeting another dog or whether a dog might bite me , it still been fascintating learning (and still learning ) the whys and wherefores.

We all learn the obvious dog body language, the way a dog wags its tail when it's happy or holds it under its body when scared but the most subtle signs can be just as telling but the majority of average dog owners dont recognise them . One of the most useful things I have learnt is the subtle stress signs, for example , the lick flip , yawning , sniffing the ground. Its been invaluable to me when handling reactive dogs.

This is an extremely interesting lecture! I am thoroughly enjoying it. The housework calls for now, but I just wanted to say one of the most valuable clues to how your dog is feeling about you, another person or another dog / dogs is the lip licking. They will flick their tongues out very quickly and briefly and it is an appeasement gesture ... or rather a calming or soothing gesture to say "don't worry, I'm cool, I will not bite". There are a million subtle gestures I am sure that our beloved dogs make and we are too slow to catch them ... which is why I always say to film your dog when he is "fighting" with another dog. Almost always it is like a ballet when you slow it right down - even when it is a full scale fight and the fur is literally flying, that is most often the worst it ever is. But the two fighting dogs become a blur, it all happens so quickly, and you have to film the action and slow it right down to see how it actually works. It is truly fascinating ... we did this with Ben and Tai out on the set aside at the back of our house, and it was just like watching a ballet. Teeth were bared, sounds were horrendous and to most on lookers it would seem they were fighting, but no, it was just al sound and fury, nothing else. Which is why it really is best to not intervene when two dogs are having a scrap ... leave them to it, it is more often than not a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. But when humans start swooping and flapping hysterically, it can often wind up the anti and then a REAL fight will kick off, and both dogs and humans can get hurt.

I hope it's not too much of a lecture, Gnasher! I don't want to bore you with all my declamations! :P

Yes, you're right, sometimes what looks like fighting to us isn't so much to dogs... but in my experience sometimes it is. I have a particular experience in mind where two apparently very friendly Staffies, a mother and daughter, approached Berkeley, who has absolutely no idea how to fight and no inclination to do so ever. It was fine, they were all greeting each other happily, I was chatting with the Staffies' owner-- when all of a sudden the two dogs lit into Berkeley like crazy. This was not play. They were really trying to rip him apart. The Staffies' owner was petrified but I was able to take them both down with a mix of yelling and shoving them aside. I wasn't hysterical and I didn't flap-- I didn't really think, either. My first instinct was to COMMAND these dogs to get off and get down and stay down. It wasn't a very long altercation, but at the end of it, the two Staffies were lying down and Berkeley was okay. Nobody was hurt-- I did have to take the younger one by the collar, but that was all it took, and she got right down. The Staffies's owner was horrified and way backed off in a corner-- I suspect I scared her too. But this is the power of your voice and body language. I am not a big person, and I'm generally quite reserved. I can have a huge presence when it is needed, and it was needed there and then.

I know that it was a very dangerous situation, and technically I should have left the other dogs alone to tear my dog to shreds, but I could not do that any more than I could have considered it at the time. I simply acted, with confidence and command, and it worked.

I'm not recommending this kind of intervention- it is dangerous, but if you cultivate confidence and command in yourself, you may be able to pull off a similar trick. Not that it's a trick-- it isn't, but, you know.

STrangechilde: i didn't mean to suggest a negativity there! It was meant as a compliment because i find your and dibby's posts extremely interesting ... please don't stop!!

Horrendous for you re the staffies ... the way you got them off your dog was absolutely the correct and safe way to separate, and im sorry i used the words hysterical and flapping ... clearly these words were inappropriate. I like to think i would have been as brave as you, well done. Staffies can get the red mist quicker than other breeds and with 2 of them it was a very dangerous situation. My parents had staffies, so i am not being racist here ... nearing in mind the function they were bred for originally it is hardly surprising!

Confidence and a commanding presence is essential in such a situation ... well done you!