I have read it all now Hali - and it took over an hour However, I am pleased my argument is very like yours, because you always speak sense

And I think you will find that most of us advocating allowing a dog to run will agree with this. BUT I've said that most people I know who have dogs that can't be allowed off lead for aggression or lack of recall or too high a prey drive will find places to allow the dog safe places to run free. not necessarily every day, but mixed in with the various other things they do to balance their dogs lives.

I don't think any of us is advocating something that would be unsafe for a dog.

are you thinking of the breeds/dogs you own?

as I said in an ideal world yup all dogs would have free time off lead,

but, not all dogs crave it, I know we have not been lucky enough to meet up on a walk yet, hopefuly it will happen, but im sure hali can confirm, when vinnie is let off lead he may go have a wee mooch around but most of the time hes about 1.5 feet behind me his choice, not mine,

kaos enjoys his a bit more, but is still never far away from me,

not all dogs need/or want to romp for miles off lead,

Yes you can argue that vinnie gets off lead all the time, but so often he doesnt do much with it unless I play with him and throw toys

ETA: I would rather see a dog on lead as in the rescue kennels as the owner cant cope any more, or even worse dead.

so my last word is, for those that can allow there dogs off lead, great

for those that cant for whatever reason, so long as the dog is well looked after, its not the end of the world,

some poor dogs never get walked on lead or off lead....but stuck in back yards

climbs back on fence to dangle legs lol..

But if someone else had your dogs....and didn't have the faculties to be able to allow them that, but put loads of time into interesting lead walks....differnt training sessions, agilty, trick training obediece etc...I believe they could have 'as good a life'.

It is great that you and many others (myself included) have a place and the training to be able to allow our dogs this. But for those that don't or can't....they can still provide thier dogs with an amazing life.

Trip is apparently classed as an HPR cross, she is a highly active dog, but I do believe that she could have what she needed without the free running time off lead on walks.

you mean like my Boxers??

Hypothetical person and dog

My point being that a dog with issues (whatever they may be) is better off safe on lead than off lead because an owner decides it ''needs'' to be off lead.

oh dear...

You see when Tango is onlead I let her sniff wherever, we vary routes all the time (I sometimes double back on myself several times on a walk), we have training sessions built in, TTouch, searchinh for food in the grass games, retrieve games, the list is endless Hali. She doesn't have the chance to miss the lead not being clipped off.

This concludes this whole thread for me. Sums it up nicely.

Some dogs do not need to be off lead.

Indeed...but given Cosmo is exceptionally high energy and has a fantastic temperament...if your dog is the polar of that in terms of temperament and energy level..what else could I assume?