Mini said:
Pit Bulls are a whole different ball game though Mini The dog was used to being around other dogs wasnt it, it was manic in their presence, why was what CM did so wrong in your eyes? The dog was still happy, it was still friendly, it wasnt cowering up a corner, is it simply because "you" wouldnt do it that way?

Hear, hear!

Some people I've dealt with in the past have actually been in tears as they've been that worked up and frustrated about the way their dog/pet is behaving. Of course that doesn't help anyone but no one can help getting upset or stressed about something if day to day life, every day, no matter what the weather, turns out to be a hellish time because their dog is wrecking their house or they're getting complaints from the neighbours due to constant barking or whatever.

As was said earlier, people tend to have work committments these days that mean at least one household member and usually both adults are out at work on a full time basis. It is little wonder that more dogs (and indeed all pets) can turn a bit ruthless at times. All animals will attempt to push the boundaries. Not only domestic animals but ALL animals do this. You only need to watch "Wildlife on One" and the likes to see this. So, when a dog or other household pet tries, it often succeeds (due to misunderstanding by the unsuspecting owners). It soon escalates into a serious problem which can go on for months and even years before the owners decide enough is enough and seek professional help. Hence by the time I see people, they're often at their wits end.

Right, now the little one is tucked up in bed, I'll attempt to answer all your questions that you asked earlier, ClaireandDaisy, if you're still following this thread afterall?

I find this interesting......we have recently (in the past 10 year) had 2 rescue dog/human aggressive dogs. Both of whom had bitten and drawn blood from people. One of whom the vets would not have back in thier surgery due to being a liabilty. I have also had a very dog-dog aggressive dog (Tassle )

All of these dogs have had thier problems overcome with positive methods.I think a lot of 'pet' people watch the programme to see the instant fixes. Great if it works for them, but many people don;t read the warnings (or pay no attention to them) they see alot of the physical stuff and try it.

I shouldn't really say anything.....these progammes have sent a lot of work my way

Exercise - to what end?
All dogs need exercise, irrespective of size. I saw an amusing section of "The Dog Whisperer" the other night where someone thought it was absurd that two small dogs should be walked for more than 5 minutes at a time!!! Basic answer to this question is "the more the merrier". Dogs are naturally active creatures and, as such, need to be kept active. Walking is good for both body and mind. Like CM, I feel that walking on the lead is an essential part of dog ownership and it is time in which dog and owner can bond. Of course off lead work is brilliant too as it enables the dog to run around, play fetch, etc. and use off extra steam that us mere humans couldn't keep up with

Boundaries - Whose boundaries, how are they set and why?
Much like the previous answer to this question, I think boundaries are down to the individual owner(s). I always ascertain what my clients ultimately would like from their dogs. Some, who have problems keeping their dogs off the settee for example, don't want their dog on the settee/bed/etc. at all. Others want them on when invited, etc. It is all down to the individual and you have to work around each case as an individual scenario. Boundaries should be set by all dog owners from the outset of their life with that dog (be it from puppy or when they acquire the dog as an adult) - this enables the dog to "get it" a lot quicker and makes for a smoother life all round with less confusion. How they're set, again, comes down to the individual scenario and I couldn't possibly go over all of the different scenarios here

Affection - why? How is this demonstrated and what does the dog get out of it?
Why not? Thats the question. People who share their lives with pets obviously realise they're part of the family and it is just a natural reaction to share affection with the animal. How it is demonstrated, again, is down to the individual scenario. Some dogs crave lots of cuddles, others are more sedate and aren't so fussed either way. Some would prefer a hug to a treat, others prefer a treat or some rawhide over any fuss or attention. Assuming we're still talking about CM here (which I'm assuming we are, given the topic in question) then he demonstrates affection towards his own dogs on pretty much every episode - you only have to see him surrounded by some of his "pack" to see that. As a Buddhist, CM believes (so I believe!) that dogs can instinctively know when their owner is happy or annoyed or whatever with them. Being happy and proud of your dog is all the affection technically required to praise the dog in CM's opinion.

How does he say a dog learns ?
Hold my hands up here - I don't know how he says dogs learn. But CM's philosophy on almost all his programmes deals with putting in place the fundamental "exercise, discipline and then affection" rule. Once a dog is exercised enough and knows its boundaries and limitations and indeed recognises its owner(s) as the pack leader(s) then thats almost all the battle solved.
I think he basically goes by the theory that a dog will lead by example and, by that, will do as the pack leader wishes them to do. So I suppose that might be the answer you're looking for to this question? Failing that, you'll have to ask the man directly I'm afraid

How do they communicate?
Not entirely sure what angle you're taking with this question so I'm not entirely sure which angle to take to answer it. CM believes humans can detect a dogs method of communication through body language (which I heartily agree with). When you've got an "eye" for picking up subtle hints and clues about how a dog is feeling then that is one method of communication. Is this what you meant by your question? Otherwise I could offer essay upon essay on how it is believed dogs communicate through all means - body language right down to their audible-to-the-human-ear barks. But don't feel it of relevance here.

How does he reconcile the different expectations of animal and human?
Again, I ditto the previous answer you got to this question earlier today. His aim is to rehabilitate dogs and to train people. Not the other way around. So, by that, I take it to mean he wishes to push the point that dogs should be treated like dogs and not carried around in handbags as fashion accessories. That is a wider attempt to get people to realise that they are dealing with an animal and not a mini-human. Sometimes people feel compelled to treat their dogs like their own children. That is fine if tha is what they want to do and its working for them and their dog but it can, and does often, lead to problems. As per seen in almost every episode of The Dog Whisperer.

All I`ve heard so far is that the method works through compulsion and negative re-inforcement. I`ve heard nothing about using the dog`s natural drives, about shaping or rewards.
How, for example could you teach distance control using this method?
Regarding the point you raised about using the dogs natural drives. What do you think CM is doing when he is implimenting the "exercise, discipline and then affection" scheme into things? That IS a dogs natural drives. A dog is naturally active, wants to exercise and run around. It needs to know what it can and can't do and then after all of that, a bit of love and affection never hurt anyone. So, CM is the absolute perfect example of using a dogs natural drives. Do you think a dog naturally seeks to hear that all-important "click" associated with clicker training that some trainers seem to get obsessed by? Simple answer - NO! A dog needs consistent training and it works in an ideal manner if the training goes alongside what a dog would seek to do naturally. A reward doesn't always have to be in the form of a massive cuddle-session or pork chop. A dog seeks reward on a variety of levels, as mentioned in a previous answer.

CM is superb at teaching long-distance control and recall. Why? Because the dog WANTS to learn, improve and indeed return. CM gets the dog to realise (in the case of the programmes) that he is "top dog" and as such, the dog wishes to be around him. As such, the dog will be under control over a large distance and recall is usually fixed easily when CM methods are employed.


Hope I've answered your questions in the manner in which you wished to see them answered. If indeed you even bother to pop back to read them. Sorry about the delay. Little one would only have turned the PC off mid way through my answering them otherwise which gets none of us anywhere!

Have to say Ace_animals post does it for me, excellent!

Ah good, at least someone agrees! My fingers hurt now through all the typing!

I have said before about CM so might aswell say again. I dont watch enough of him to say whether I like him or not but I have always thought with dogs that everyone is different and one trainers methods may not work for one dog where as another trainers methods might work. Aslong as the dog is not ill treated or caused pain to sort I problem I am fine, least people looking and following CM are doing something to work with their dog rarther than do nothing like alot of owners

Hear, hear, again! Yup, like I said a page or so back, people who see CM (and indeed others like him, and indeed myself) are usually at their wits end with their dogs. People inevitably don't want to pay a professional to help unless they're desperate and have tried numerous things before themselves.

It takes a braver person to admit defeat and/or admit they're having real issues with their much-loved pooch than it does to just ignore it and hope solves itself.

Wow, thankyou so much, that means such a lot coming from you

I am sorry you feel that way and if my posts come across as patronising I never ment them that way. Sorry you are on the defensive but you have posted to the most emotive issuses on this forum.
I am not against crossbreeds - I have 2 of them. Totaly going off topic here but I disagree with delibratly breeding them tho, the reason being, taking my mutt Ben - called a 'border jack' in the USA and bred for agility. They wanted fast smart small dogs for agility and flyball so crossing a border collie with a JRT sounded ideal, problem is you cant dictate what attributes a pup will get, its a random mixture of the parents, so for every 'perfect' sports dog you get some with tiny legs and big bodies, some too big some to small and some with a mix of personalities that makes them unsuitable. Delibratly breeding crosses creates lots of unwanted dogs as well as possibly the one you want - go to a rescue to get a mutt

Yup thats his mantra
but
Exercise
yes its good for all of us to get your heart and lungs going. Problem is Ceser is all about ONLY exersise. If you have to train your dog till it is worn out every day before it will behaive then every day the walks will get longer because you are making your dog fitter. A sensible amount of exercise with special big walks every now and again. Ceser also totaly ignores mental stimulation, dogs are force walked where they are not allowed to sniff or anything - cos of course they should follow the pack leader, and in the worse case dogs are run on a treadmill to tire them out
Sniffing about, investigating and having a play with other dogs and the owner is the most mentaly and physicaly stimulating way to walk a dog, if you cant find a way for a dog to have outside walks sniffing about and being a dog (onlead if needs be) then you shouldnt have a dog - end of

Disciplin
Ceser just assumes that dogs know how they are supposed to behaive in any situation and if it is not doing that then you are not a good enough pack leader and should disciplin your dog more
It is NOT natural for dogs to walk nicely on the lead, sit and be calm while you are talking to someone else, deal with visitors, etc
Dogs have to make a choice about how to behaive in these situations, some get it right in our eyes - and if they do they should be rewarded - but no Ceser dosent think so
If they dont do what we want Ceser corrects them, but as the dogs dont know what we want them to do that is a bit unfair
sure, you cant reason with a dog, but you have to TRAIN it how you want it to behaive, give it an alternative to what it is doing

Affection
This is a reward, its part of training and everyday life with a dog. Its good for you and the dog. The fact that Cesar isnt into this just tells me that he really dosent like dogs all that much. Sure there has to be more than affection on tap, but if your dog is great and you are so proud of him how can anyone who loves their animal not show it?


As for the other tv shows, it is a total pity that there are only these one size fits all shows on, v little showing anything positive at all, although a little in dog borstal, in the main I hate it - you know exactly what is going to happen to the dog before the show starts - agility, rattle bottle, lead yanking

We all agree there are different ways to train a dog - why is it punisment methods and out of date domonance theories are the ones given the time on air

- and in the main these methods arnt really quicker than positive training - the tv just editis it to look that way


I actually had a example of using punishment on a fear agressive dog - by accident
Mia, who I have said before is hyper reactive around other dogs
A dog she didnt know was bounding over to her and she was just making her 1st lunge when the woman I was with accidently trod on her foot
coulnd be a better timed correction (if you like that kind of thing)
she yelped, looked and the woman and then snapped more agressivly at the dog than I have ever seen her react
Thankfuly she didnt associate that action with me or any other dog else that would have put my training right back

I think that a high percentage of muderers and rapists etc have had a poor upbringing ,yes...some haven't but a high percentage have sadly.

Unfortunatley those people with 'easy' dogs aren't that sceptical Dawn, from what I've seen they are often the ones resorting to aversives in the park for the slightest thing...the result is, what was an easy dog becomes a problem dog rapidly.
That's what I was trying to say above.

You are not the only behaviourist who has seen a marked rise in cases being brought to them as a direct result of CM programmes and other 'behaviourists' who follow his methods. A friend of mine, who is an excellent behaviourist, has also noticed a marked increase in cases like that. As have many rescue centres throughout the country.