There is no need to apologise for not finding something interesting.

And the fact that articles are "really old" does not necessarily reflect their relevance of lack of.

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that prong collars cause enough pain that a dog learns quickly?

I recommend what I believe to be the appropriate equipment for the appropriate dog in the appropriate circumstance.

I also believe in researching equipment carefully, understanding its use, how it works, the pros and cons of each with respect to both dog and handler.

One of my dogs had a pinch collar on very many years ago, during a demo of equipment.

There is an overload of dog training programmes, often all with contradictory methods.

First of all the pinch collar does not have "spikes" as such ie they are not sharp or desgined to pierce skin etc, in case any reader inferred this was the case.

Having said that, I have seen modified pinch collars on the continent which have been so sharpened.

The way it works is to maintain pressure all around the neck region and make it uncomfortable for the dog to pull or lunge as the prongs tighten. There is a limit to this ability.

Eg just as there is a limit to how tight a half check/choke or martingale collar can go versus a full check/choke.

Its severity will also vary slightly (IMO) depending on how hirsute the dog is.

However..........

As in any equipment the main problem is often incorrect fitting and the fact that it can actually raise drive rather than decrease it.

Also incorrect use by handler.

NB the terms "incorrect" in this context does not imply that I believe that the use of such collars is "correct" per se.

Only that the product has been designed to be used in a specific manner.

SB really old as in pretty outdated as at the time most dog classes involved walking round in a circle popping the lead
So basically its only compairing one punishment with another


I have come to the conclusion prongs hurt because that is how they are designed to work, often the word discomfort replaces pain but at the end of the day it gives a sensation bad enough that the dog wants to avoid it in the future, for some dogs choking themselves is not bad enough to want to stop pulling, but a prong is

I also research everything I can and came to the conclusion that prongs are no good
Anyone with good timing and common sense with a little help can teach a dog to walk nicely on lead using positive methods
If they don't have good timing and common sense then they shouldn't be using a powerful correction tool anyway

Unfortunately there are lot of SHOULDS and SHOULD NOTS in the world, and many of us have to deal with the realities that plonkers own dogs.

Utopia is a great idea, but as the world will always be filled with incompetent owners who cannnot or will not train their dogs in the best way possible, gadgets, whether head halters, harnesses, collars, leads, etc will continue to be used.

All of which have fallout.

IME very few people have good timing and common sense aint that common!

As for pain stopping behaviours..........................

You have evidently not seen dogs with broken legs continuing to herd sheep or gundogs with holes in their side still wanting to retrieve!

yup I know and I agree there are lots of plonkers who own dogs, I would never recomend a prong collar to one of them
I am well aware gadgets will continue to be used - I would prefer to teach someone how to use a harness or head collar correctly rather than try and teach them how to punish thier dogs

If you read my post properly you will see I am well aware that pain dosent always stop behaviours - dogs will pull on a choke chain till they pass out - and choking hurts

and there have been examples of dogs pulling on prong collars till they break the skin too - not sharpend ones - the blunt ended ones - so that must bl00dy hurt

How exactly do you think the 'discomfort' of the pain of a pinch collar works when the pain of a broken leg does not?

The only difference I could see would be if the timing was perfect - and we have already addressed the fact that the people resorting to these impiments dont have good timing

Similarly dogs that have been badly injured by kicks from horses, or run over by cars, due to chase behaviour of those, will also continue to chase these objects even after that severe, painful life-threatening "punishment".

On a less severe level many dogs repeatedly continue to go after bees and wasps despite frequent stings. A whippet I as a child had spent every summer with swelling round his mouth from stings. As SB says pain can sometimes increase rather than reduce drive.

Pain does not reliably stop a behaviour, and some pieces of equipment sometimes stated as "having to be painful or it wouldn't work" work not by pain but by interruption and distraction and by conditioning the dog to view a behaviour as inaccessible or not working due to conditioning.

Training discs for example work due to pre-conditioning to expect disappointment, via not getting anticipated food, hence due to what might be termed psychological pain rather than physical pain. "A signal of non reward" is of course a much more PC and so acceptable way of describing this effect.

I quite recently heard a clicker trainer expressing dismay and some annoyance when a well-known lecturer explained that withholding a treat, or even the slight delay between performing the behaviour and delivery of the click or treat inevitably subjected the dog to a degree of anxiety because that would mean to the trainer "that means clicker training is cruel".

Of course if the dog fails to perform the correct behaviour that anxiety would be experienced for more than the split second between correct performance and treat/click delivery.

Aversive does not equal pain e.g mild noise aversion, water spray, withholding an anticipated reward, social isolation is an aversive. these all work without physical pain.

A hand clap can often be effective by interrupting/startling/distracting a dog from an unwanted behaviour.

Over time this can build a perception in the dog that the behaviour cannot be successfully completed, so it sooner or later fades.

Professor Danny Mills and John Bradshaw, amongst others, agree that positive-only learning is not possible. Not all dogs work for positive reinforcement alone in all situations.

The more strongly motivated a dog is to perform a behaviour and the more deeply ingrained that stimulus-response is, the harder it is likely to be to successfully divert and interrupt that behaviour in the early stages of re-training.

Aside from individual differences in what is perceived as painful and what is perceived as a minor irritation, it is also the case that what can be highly distracting, or even painful to a calm dog can be unnoticed by that same dog when it is in a highly adrenalin-charged endorphin-flooded situation, as also applies to with people.

Greyhounds can be the biggest wimps out when calm, but broken toes and ripped skins can go unheeded in the heat of the chase, until the adrenalin and endorphins dissipate.

If a prong collar was working tru distraction then there would have to be more training to show the dog what was wanted after he had been distracted

Sounds very like Adam has been let back in the room

A distraction does not have a very powerful effect after the first time unless something else is trained - dogs would just get used to it over time and it wouldnt do anything

The argument that 'witholding a treat' is punishing is always touted nowadays
But if that was the case then the 'punished' behaviour would stop being demonstraited by the dog, and they would stop offering all behaviours
Wheras in clicker trained dogs they just learn at that point to try something different - not that what they were doing was always wrong

Its like a game of hot and cold
If it is done with the only 'punishment' is the person is told 'cold' when they head in a wrong direction they learn that that direction is wrong THAT time - but they will still try it the next time - happily

If some kind of horrible thing happens when they go in the cold direction the next time they try they are going to be unlikely to want to go in that direction the next time

Actually distractions DO have a very powerful effect, as is demonstrated time and time again on this forum by dogs being distracted by other dogs whilst being trained.

I am also a little confused on your statement:

the 'punished' behaviour would stop being demonstraited by the dog, and they would stop offering all behaviours

Surely this completely contradicts the earlier premise upon which your argument around pain is based ?

ie

That for some dogs choking themselves is not bad enough to want to stop pulling.

Does this mean that a) choking themselves is not an aversive b) it is not punishing?

If a choke chain is not considered an aversive or punishing, why are the APDT against them? Why do they not consider them appropriate pieces of kit?

Because according to you, if a dog was being punished by choking themselves on a choke chain the pulling on the lead would stop and the dog would stop offering ALL behaviours!

And are you really suggesting that if something horrible occurs that it prevents dogs repeating behaviours?

What an idiot:



But at least he shows they hurt "Ouch that was a number 4 not 1"

Prong collars work by causing pain - if anyone's denying that, here's a challenge, put one on yourself and let one of us use it with the same force as one might reasonably expect how a common everyday dog owner would use it. And I'd say that's going above the 'number 4' in that video above!! (I think it's safe to say they were using a scale of 1 to 10 )