there is nothing wrong with cherry picking & indeed that is the very essance of a good dog person & trainer.

Im a ex riding instructor & ex horse nut, competing at a local & Area level i HATE the constant comparsion between dogs & horses, how are they the same? its like comparing dogs to people. Infact one of my trainers reckons he can tell the Ex riders as they always start off being abit too heavy handed in their handling, thats one thing ive really worked on!!!!!!

If my dog bit my other half then no doubt he would have deserved it,as my dogs do not bite in everyday life.

Every single thing ive seen CM do ive always though,OMG no thats barabaric, or well i could live with that but id want to tweak a.b & c for a better response & for the dog to learn better.
Ive never seen him & think oh how prefect he read & dealt with that!

Please someone post a clip of him prefectly dealing with a situation & i will happily eat my words!!!!!

well I wouldn't expect your dogs to go around biting people because you are obviously hot on the training aspect of it!!
However, the people and dogs shown on dog whisperer don't seem to have a clue and the dogs seem to be allowed to do pretty much what they want, and have always done this and their behaviours are getting more and more extreme, hence the fact that CM has to be extreme in order to bring on a reality check. Once the dog has realised that it is not the boss, but CM is, then the methods use gradually lessen until they are not needed, plus he trains the owners, it is no good the dog doing what he tells it, the owners need to take on board what the problems are, what the causes of the problems are and how to 'fix' them, then the dog will start listening to them too.
It wouldn't enter my dogs' heads to do some of the things the dogs shown on CM's programme do, because they know where the boundaries are and respect them, however there are occasions when you are groping for new ideas which can be then modified to suit both the circumstances, yourself and the dog. The leg thing works, it is not over harsh, it is a correction, and it works. I will continue to watch his programme with interest to see what else he can teach me!!!

what good is a correction without praise? that is from the dark ages of training,
CM does not praise & infact STOPS the owners of the leg "tapped" dogs from doing so.Now this isnt cruel but it is extremley bad training practise, how does the dog know its right,because its not "kicked gently" anymore. How about using a leg tap if nothing else has worked & then praising the dog?
You may well be able to "control" the force of your leg tap,but can everyone, how many more kicked dogs are we going to see?

if I kicked my dogs I think they would be very wary of me and not trust me Moving my leg onto them when they are trying to move in front of me blocks them, if they don't do it again, I don't move my leg again, so the reward is that I don't do it. In a pack of dogs you have ones that tell the others what is acceptable and what isn't, my actions tell them that moving in front of me is not acceptable so they don't (except when a small furry squirrel sprints accross their path ) I have to say that the majority of the time now it is almost auto pilot and except for odd times when the temptation is too much they stay where I want them to be. Even when temptation rears its ugly head they are a heck of a lot better now, for me it is win win all round. If it doesn't feel right to you, well don't do it, it works for me,my girls are extremely comfortable with it and I do NOT kick them!!

Why if the tapping works do you need to repeat it eacch time? isnt it better to "train" the dog rather than to have to correct it all the time?
I understand that you arent kicking them & have no intention too, but what about a numpty down the road who watches you doing that & decides to copy you but does it abit harder?

correction without reward is not teaching its correcting.that is what i dont like about his methods,Dogs are capable of learning,so why not "teach" them?

I really examined it over and over in my mind before I used this method. I take on board what you mean about the numpty down the road, but it is not a technique that I have to use all the time, sometimes a reminder is necessary, but all I do is move my body towards the offender and she immediately drops behind. the numpty probably wouldn't even notice the body language I use to be honest!!! When I try anything new I always do it where I am quite isolated and not interrupted so it is highly unlikely the numpty/ies would see me and interpret it as kicking one of my girls. When I have got whatever it is on the right level then I will start using it in places where there are things going on that will distract them, so I will end up on a main road full of noisy traffic practising my stays!!!

I think everyone uses different methods - and most things work prob for different reasons

I am anti CM - but of course like any trainer some things he says make sense
Of course dogs need exercise - but outside sniffing about and seeing the sights not on a treadmill
Yes they pick up on your state of mind so being calm is much better than yelling at them (although when Ben ran into the road when a car was coming it was hard to keep the happy voice I usually use - but I did and it worked - he came right back)
So of course some of his methods work

But some of the things he is saying dont tie in with the things that are happening
He is saying the dog is 'calm submissive' when infact a dog averting its gaze, cowering on the floor and licking its lips is far from calm

The episode that always springs to my mind is the chicken killer
He decided to train it with a duck
So he brought the duck towards the dog
No reaction from the dog - in my mind perfect time to reward
Nope he brings the duck closer and wags it in the dogs face - dog lunges and grabs the duck by the leg (no way should any training method let another animal be hurt!)
Then he makes the psst noise
Dog backs off
Waves duck, dog lunges, pssst. repeat till dog cowering on floor not offering any behaivior
then the guy rubs the duck over the dog and finally praises the dog (I can imagine the thoughts in the dogs mind 'wait till this guy leaves then I will show that duck!!)

IMO Cesar is a bully - he punishes and not praises

I had this thought about the 2 training methods today

I work as a driving instructor and I would say I 'train' people to drive using a positive method
I explain how they are supposed to do something, talk them through it while they are doing it and praise them when they get it right and explain anything that has gone wrong
Next time I let them do it a bit more by themselves, praising all the time and give more help on the bits they had touble with

If I was to use cesars method I would sit them in the car and give them the keys and tell them to get on with it
I would yell 'NO' every time they did something wrong and say nothing when they get it right
At the end of the day they MIGHT learn to move the car but far more likely is they would stop trying to do anything and just sit there for an hour (and get a new instructor)


At my agility class we have a cesar method trained dog
Sure he is obedient
THey say down and it flops to the floor - but it is like a robot - no joy in its face
I much prefer Bens behaivior
to him training is a fun thing - its what we do together
He wants to get it right
He does a happy dance when I get the clicker or the treat bag
he tries to figure out what I am wanting him to do and is sooo happy when he gets it right
so when I ask him to down he grins and lies down
sure sometimes because he is thinking ahead to the fact I am going to want him to move his bum does sneak up into the air - but I tell him that I dont want that I want a down and down he goes happily waiting for the next fun thing we are going to do


PS - it is such a great feeling to have a dog with a good recal isnt it?? I cant say I am the best trainer in the world but I got v good training advice and no matter what Ben is doing - including full on play fight with his puppy palls, I just call him and he comes full pelt ears streaming in the wind tounge out wondering what fun things we might be doing

very good post - i would say i agree with pretty much everything you've said here! i still fail to see the relevance of CM's methods used on the TV show(ones that aren't common sense) to "non-red-zone" dogs.

You should see my plan for places to do/train DC with flynn after the crufts disaster.

Completely FABULOUS post!!!!!!!