Well, I am not sure that a long coated GSD does as I understand they generally lack an undercoat but not really my thing so should not comment specifically :smt001 but I agree some of the less fashionable looking dogs do conform, certainly a shorter coated cocker than those that win big in the ring these days is still conforming but in fact many judges will still admire a well constructed dog that happens to have an unfashionably short coat and the luxuriously coated ones do happen to be bred to high quality by very experienced breeders so still well worth pitting your dog against them and learning how it fairs.
But my point remains valid, I believe, that for whatever ever reason you are not exposing your dogs to impartial opinion you are very unlikely to be able to consistantly produce a good example for all the reasons I have given, albeit with some unfashionable variation or not.

Not everyone wants to show or work their dogs.
Some people are happy with a 'pet' and want to buy just that...a pet.
They are not interested in buying a perfect example of a breed, just a happy, healthy dog. That's all.
Some really lovely, intelligent people breed from their dogs and do all the health checks etc. There is, IMO nothing wrong with that.

I do applaud people who challenge the current trends in the showring but I think, on the whole, they fight a losing battle regarding type. The usual human rule is that - if a little is good, more must be better and this applies most definitely regarding specific aspects of the standard.

The GSD topline for instance. To be fair, the standard does say slightly sloping with straight back. This has been taken to excess... and after all, how much is "slighly".... compared to what..... a ski slope?

Not meaning longcoat GSDs. All the dogs on that webpage (and presumably Patch's) are standard coats.

Yes, agree with your last point but you don't have to go into the showring (or working field) to have critical analysis of your dogs. And I do believe that in some breeds, the type of opinions that are forthcoming in the show world, are actually detrimental to the breeds.

Someone buying for a pet is not likely to get a perfect example :smt001 as the breeder would surely keep that for the ring and onward breeding but everyone who pays good money for a pedigree does deserves to have not only a happy, healthy dog but one that also closely resembles the breed they are hoping for and, for all the reasons I have given, I believe they are very much less likely to get that from a breeder that never shows. We are not talking about slight differences in quality, many of the specimens walking the streets of Britain are way off the mark. They may make delightful, healthy pets (although when you see the construction errors I suspect many of them aren't) and I am sure their owners give and recieve love in the same quantities as any other dog but people have paid hundreds of pounds for them. In my view they have been sold a pup, they could have got a good example for roughly the same amount in many instances.

I understand there are judges that prefer the straighter back so there is still scope there for obtaining a knowledgable critique for your dog.

Hewey, I think you are possibly lumping all pet breeders together as unethical, as others have done on this thread. I agree that the vast majority of pet bred dogs are low quality compared to show bred. This I believe, is because the pet market is flooded with the products of wholesale mass production from puppy farms.

This doesn't make pet breeding per se unethical. There are some very good and ethical pet breeders.

Hewey I don't think you are getting my point at all.
People are not bothered.
They want a happy ,healthy pet and have no real interest in breed standards or showing. They aren't interested.
In my opinion, if a show breeder then sells to the pet market a dog, which is in their opinion 'sub standard' then they are an unethical breeder. Full stop.

I for example, am a knowledgable dog owner, I love and adore specific breeds, but you know what, I don't care very much if the dog i get is an inch higher or lower than it 'should' be. I don't care if it doesn't conform perfectly to a breed standard as IMO they should be there only as a giude, not to be adhered to religiously.Striving for a perfect dog that hits the breed standard perfectly has created problems.

I am willing to shell out hundreds of poundsfor a happy, healthy dog and you know what,IF it isn't perfect, IF it doesn't conform to the breed standard perfectly I don't care, as long as my dog is healthy and has been bred ethically.
If people don't want to show, but do want to breed...where on earth is the problem with that????

Exactly Pod.
Not all pet breeders are ethical.
Not all show breeders are ethical.
Not all working dog breeders are ethical.
It would do dog owners a lot more good if there wasn't this in fighting and we could all strive towards ALL dogs, no matter which market they are being sold for,to have been bred ethically.

You're misreading the GSD standard, the standard calls for Back between withers and croup, straight, the slightly sloping bit is in respect of the withers Withers long, of good height and well defined, joining back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back
Which I read as withers higher than back but a smooth line (not lumpy!) to a straight back then down to a gently curving croup.
Becky