Hi Patch, ok so would I be correct in saying, IF you breed one litter in ten years, your rear this litter badly, in dirty over crowded cage, then sell to a person who deals dogs, should you be caught you would be prosecuted under the law, the problem being breeder licensing, {well in my area anyway} only applies to people who breed more than four litters a year I know its all wrong, but that is how its done here, so the breeder licensing would not be of use, but you would still be charged under the animal welfare law? So a puppy farmer could be someone who has one litter in a life time, or 40 per year,,,, just as we seem to be on the subject of the old tar with one brush,,,surely the two are very diff,
the first being a one off really the second being a way of life for someone,

we have also came under fire on this thread with statements like all breeding should be stopped,,,FGS, are we really going to bow to this, I THINK NOT, if its not a wind up,,,,wtf is it,


As to the peta thing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well,


I honestly think there are far better animal charitys to give money to,

some who even manage to stay within the law, eg,,,,no terrorisim charges,,

,I feel most who are very active in these groups,,,Im not saying the new member of the forum is,,,we dont know enough about her yet, but on the whole they are all just plain loopy,

I take my leave from this now,,,,before I do say something I regret,,,,tis in the post first class,

The example you give would come under welfare laws, yes, licensing is a different thing which is run by local councils, [ the giving and rescinding of licenses ], so breaching a license would be through the relevant laws though would possibly carry welfare issues as well which could be prosecuted for


Technically yes, the two are different, [ in the eyes of the relevant laws ].
To the general dog loving public, one would be a puppy farmer, the other [ if breeding in the manner you use for your example ], would be regarded as a byb - but both as bad as each other.
I don`t see a problem with tarring those with the same brush in as much as they should be avoided like the plague that they are [ bearing in mind you are giving hypothetical examples ! ].

The breeders who do all the health checks, are genuinely breeding to better their breed, who do everything the right way iow, should not consider themselves to be included in any scathing comments said by anyone when bad breeders are talked about when they know they, [ the ethical breeders ], are not the low life type who create misery.

If you think of it another way, say someone claims that there are a lot of agility instructors who teach the use of harsh methods - I would not be personally affronted because I know it would not be referring to me as I don`t use harsh methods and I would boot out any handler doing so at my club.

I can understand ethical breeders feeling they are also under fire when byb`s and puppy farmers are talked about in derogatory terms but there really is no need for them to feel that way when they know their standards set them apart from the bad types.





The conversation may have started that way but out of passion on behalf of dogs needlessly being killed

The discussion has moved on since then with explanations of why no breeding at all would be flawed because dogs would become extinct if no one bred, or there would only be non-health tested dogs in terrible conditions from the slime brigade who would carry on regardless whether the ethical breeders stopped or not.

So no, it was`nt from a wind up - misguided thinking, yes, but the discussions / explanations have got that line of thought into perspective now, [ I think so anyway ? ].

While the theory may have been wrong, no one can fault the heartfelt passion for the welfare of the dogs which can`t get homes because of the wrong sort churning them out - all of us here are side by side on that I`m sure :smt001

Good and bad in all things don`t forget...
Perhaps I can put another perspective for you to consider - imagine PETA members [ or whatever organisation portrayed badly in the press ], were dogs - lets say they were all Rotties - and you saw some sensationalised story in the press for an attack of some sort, saying they were all devil dogs - would you believe that press was true of every one of the breed, and would you even believe what was printed at all knowing the media will blow anything out of all proportion and usually without much in the way of facts for the sake of issue sales ?
Just something for you to ponder



Nah, you won`t say something you would regret
I know you well enough Shona
If you read this I know you will be calmer and I know you will see the points in a balanced way - I believe you might even re-consider if the posts you are annoyed about were meant in a bad way as you might think on first reading them or simply the desperation of someone caring deeply, and the sheer frustration of knowing there is so much improvement needed but feeling powerless to instigate it, something we all do share feelings about and are better united on to keep plugging away at educating wherever we can and to help each other toward the right ways of going about achieving it :smt001

And if that does`nt earn me some Shona raspberry awards I don`t know what will

tinklady firstly, you say you did not get a good welcome, did you post in introduction as most other people do? No you did not, instead you stormed in to someone else's thread with your attitude of 'I have rescue dogs and therefore you should all have rescue dogs too and there should be no choice in the matter and everyone should stop breeding for at least 2 years.' We are knowledgeable adults here capable of deciding whether we want a rescue dog or not , we don't need telling we should have no choice. I have quoted a sample of your posts above, please take a moment to read through them and maybe you will see how your attitude come across to others

I have had the same breed for 43 years and knew well one of the' Godmothers' of the breed and many who helped establish it in this country before the war. I love my breed above all others, will always have a dog of this breed as long as I am able and will probably be buried with one at me feet!
I refuse to have people dictating to me what dog I can and can't have. My present puppy goes back to breeding lines I have known for 40 years. Very few of my breed end up in rescue, those that do are usually ex breeding bitches from puppy farms, if you contact our breed rescue you will find it is almost impossible to get a dog and never a puppy.

What you are suggesting is that people take on rescue dogs of types that they may not be suited to (or they don't have a dog at all), a recipe for disaster because the poor dogs could end up going to people who don't really want that type of dog but have no choice, they may not be able to cope with any behavioural problems that arise and the poor dogs end up back in rescues or bites through lack of understanding /fear and get PTS. We have had a number of people on here who have taken on rescue dogs with problems that only became effident after a number of days, the people were unprepared for the problems and had no other choice but to return the dogs to rescue.

There are some excellent breeders on Dogsey who go to great lengths to keep contact with the puppies they have bred and to ensure they are well cared for and to take them back if they aren't, I know this for a fact, I have spoken to them when they had problems with people who bought a puppy and they were were endeavouring to get a puppy back . These breeders provide people with happy healthy dogs of a breed that suites their circumstances and those owners get years of happiness from having these dogs . I don't think anyone has the right to presume to tell these caring breeders when they can and can't breed the occasional litter.

You say your 7 month old son helps to feed and groom rescue dogs, you also say you only teach your rescue dogs 4 commands because you don't want performing dogs. I am sorry to say if I was a rescue center home checking and you told me this, these two points alone would ring alarm bells for me. Small children are unpridictable and make sudden movements and sounds that can scare a dog and make it react through fear, the greatest care should be taken to protect dogs from babies and babies from dogs and I am not sure you are doing this. Training dogs is not about performing it is about stimulating their minds to prevent boredom...

I am sorry there are so many dogs in rescue, most of them are the product of people who are unable to care for a dog correctly or accidental mating not good breeders.
tinklady, if you wish to have rescue dogs that is your choice, I don't think you have a right to come on here dictating to others what in your opinion they can and can't do. I would say your attitude actually puts people off getting a rescue dogs!
Added
I should just add I don't condone irresponsible breeding by bad breeders and people who have no consideration for our lovely breeds .

Great Post Mini and thank you for saying everything I wanted to and saying it so much more eloquently than I ever could.

I posted in thiis thread way back at the beginning but when I read later posts of TinkLady v , especially the one about her 7 month old baby caring for her rescue dog, I just could not find the right words to post a diplomatic reply ,Eepecially since TLv is a new member and I didn't want to seem unwelcoming. So thanks Mini you have done it and in a nice way.

For a start i was never promoting them, thank you and i am aware that there are extremists, exactly like there are in breeding iguppy farms, doesnt mean that good does not come from them, they have had a lot of peacefull success. I would never condone violence and yes i am aware of terroism charges.
Thank you.

Why is my son caring for my dogs so difficult to grasp?????

because he is 7 months old, he doesn't even understand the concept of the toilet yet how on earth can he be actively involved with caring for an animal.
Becky

What a brilliant thread! (apart from a few) i am REALLY enjoying hearing peoples views on this.
Dawn.

Please re read my previous post, i explained it there.

Tinklady v
Please re read my previous post, i explained it there.

Why is my son caring for my dogs so difficult to grasp
I have read it and find it difficult to grasp because having had a child of my own I know for a fact that a 7 month old is not capable of caring for itself never mind for a dog.