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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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28-05-2007, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Hewey 
Even the quotes you offered do not refer to actual nerves just the precursor to the formation of them.
I don't think I believe babies feel pain because some medical expert told me I think it might be because they cry from the first time they get a heel prick at hours old and certainly it is unmistakable when they receive injection at months old :smt001
What you have read has obviously convinced you but I am afraid I have read it all before and it has not done anything to convince me so pointless in keep telling me I ought to
suckling when they have been through something unpleasant huh?
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Location: central scotland
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,637
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29-05-2007, 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by random
I've heard a few people say the same, it's exactly what i'm afraid will happen in the docked breeds here, it may be a good while before they are back to as good a standard as they are now.
Patch it must have been late last night but I didn't mention the obvious reason, spaniels do different work to weimies and are more likely to go into thick cover. Although Weimies are HPR and general all rounders, they are a wee bit big to flush like a spaniel, and this is where a spaniel does most of it's tail damamge.
Also I spoke to a friend of mine who breeds long haired weimies for work, show and pet homes, and she says a lot of owners who work their weims, keep the long haired to do pointing and mainly retrieving, and don't encourage them to the kind of work in which their long hair may become entangled. So you learn something new every day! Personally i've only really been interested in owning short haired weimies so had to ask the experts.
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Location: central scotland
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,637
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29-05-2007, 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by Hewey
Myth 1 I have no doubt mature animals, mammals presumably, do feel pain as humans do but the question is what of neonates and this statement does not appear to be dealing with that.
Myth 2 Are we talking about precocious neonates such as puppies or more generally of animals that may have a much lengthier gestation? Many mammals are born much further developed, able to hear, see and even walk.
The evidence I have is that of my own experience. I have reasonable experience of puppies and have spent many hours with little to do in the nursery but observe them. They are not without means of making you aware when they are uncomfortable from the very beginning. I am also been present at the docking of several litters and know what I have observed there.
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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29-05-2007, 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by nero
the 11 pups i had docked last year were only 24 hours old when they were done, and as i said earlier in this thread, there was not a sound from any of them, and no apparent distress either .
Hewey just stated that the pups suckle whenever they are disturbed, which says a lot actually. They suckle in order to release natural stress relievers into the milk (and pain killers come to that), the argument that pups are ok with docking they just go suckle form mum, doesn't stand, just like in the past the argument that babies didn't feel pain, they just cry anyway, hasn't exactly stood the tests of time and modern advances into the understanding of 'pain'.
As for some rotti owners (or owners of ANY) breed not breeding anymore because the dogs will have tails. Good. There is more to the dog than a tail and whilst I want a dog that I like the look of, that comes in second place to its personality, health and temperament.
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Location: dogsville
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Posts: 16,141
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29-05-2007, 06:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 536
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29-05-2007, 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by Ramble
just like in the past the argument that babies didn't feel pain, they just cry anyway, hasn't exactly stood the tests of time and modern advances into the understanding of 'pain'.
I suppose neither of us know for certain but I have always assumed puppies suckle when they are disturbed because unless they have very recently received their fill they are programmed to always take on more due to their regular need. I don't think they would find it particularly stressfull to be awakened because it happens regularly as the dam moves around.
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Joined: Jan 2006
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29-05-2007, 08:29 AM
Originally Posted by Ramble
I would consider chopping their tails off, to be quite a lot of 'stress'.....
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Location: central scotland
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,637
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29-05-2007, 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by thandi
Whats to support? How do you think you are going to change the Law?
I am staunchly PRO docking, but recognise that others may have a different opinion, as is their right.
If it is any consolation, you may be delighted to learn that one of my beautiful docked pups will be winging its way Aberdeenward at the end of next week
ability to stand up for the minority, seems to me we've lost out along the way !!
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Location: Preesall, Lancashire
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,622
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29-05-2007, 10:26 AM
So there will be a period of adjustment for shows etc, and people are going to have to maybe rethink their breeding lines with regards to "good" and "bad" tails.
Max and his sister Millie have tails and they are no different to any other Boxer.
They have as much chance of injuring their tails as Dalmatians, Bull Mastiffs and DDB's do (similar types of tail), and any other dog with a tail (Labs, GSD's etc).
I can see how some people are upset that they can no longer show and work their animals, but the law is the law, and anyway, a tail is only one part of a dog.
If you love your breed, surely a tail, or lack of it, only makes up one part of the whole package?
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