So not ratting, ok, you want to see retrieving game that we have shot, yes? I can do that for you. Do you want to see the game shot first? Seriously, dont want to open myself up for your criticisms do I?

Show me Celt wearing his cap in the car and how he is calm whilst travelling, that WILL help me understand that they work.

Can do that---once I find it!

I want to see how you can own and work dogs and only use two commands----that is what I find interesting so whatever the sequence is of controlling the dogs, walking along with you and then retrieving.

Tassle can video Celt tomorrow all things being equal.

rune

Next time Im out Ill take the phone with me. Wont be tomorrow though, Im off to a BOP centre for some photography practice, but next time we have a purge on Woodies, Ill do it for you.

Sorry about that, will ask the question again ..

It was meant as a serious question BTW!

Just wanted to know if it was just a personal opinion, or one held by others in the breed .

I have noticed recently the amount of working type springers that have bulging eyes , i would of thought this would of been more of a problem to a dog going into thick cover?

We have boarded a few of late, youngsters with eye problems, not sure whether that is connected or not, we have had one in who's eyes are awful, poor thing. These of course are all pets.

Springers are bad for allergies to food.

Our vet reckons if there is an odd lymph gland up on a dog it'll be a springer with an allergy to something.

Often they have red rimmed eyes and chew their feet---all syptoms of food allergies.

Usually sorted with a decent kibble and no additives in treats.

rune

It's taken ages to plough through this lot and my brew has gone cold!

A few points - in no particular order of importance (and they are just my observations: no better / worse than anyone else's )

1) Going right back to the original shots of the 2 springers: I agree that the basic construction is pretty similar and that without meeting both dogs in the flesh and actually seeing them at work (notwithstanding the fact that so much work-wise depends on training too!) it would be impossible to tell which had the most natural aptitude.

However, I think it is absolutely fair to say that in very thick cover, it is more practical to have a dog with a less long and silky coat. Having said that, I'd rather have a dog with a naturally long coat who would crash through rhodies and bramble all day ( I could just keep it trimmed) than one with a more practical length but less enthusiasm for the job.

2) As an aside, I've often wondered why we have so many flushing breeds with long, tangly coats, when a good harsh wiry jacket would be much more sensible if you think about it! I guess it's all down to the fact that the gene, or combination of genes for flushing are somehow linked with the gene(s) for a less than practical coat - show or non-show. I think the technical term is 'Sod's Law'

3) Having said that, what I do object to about the 2nd photo of the springer is pristine show pose is that the presentation (in my opinion) is exaggerated and to deliberately produce a working dog with such a profusion of coat does seem illogical. It's almost as though the dogs need the profusion of coat so it can be 'groomed' into the correct shape. To me, it looks contrived and a bit silly and smacks of a culture where dogs are being produced for the benefit of the show-scene, when really, surely the show-scene should be there for the benefit of pedigree dogs.

4) I agree there are working springers of all shapes and sizes and the same can be said for cockers! However, the terrain on different shoots vary, as does the actual purpose people want a dog for. Some want a rangey, faster dog; others want a bigger, broader dog that will push through dense cover. I suggest (ducks for cover) that it is more by certain people being in certain places at a certain time that we ended up with Clumber / Field/ Cocker / Springer/ Welsh Springer / Sussex as named breeds with breed standards at all If different people had been of different committees etc., we might just as easily have had different 'types' morphing into different breeds. You can still see old illustrations of English Water Spaniels, Norfolk Spaniels and I bet every county had (actually they still have) their leggy, rangey spaniels and their smaller, very stylish 'busy' little spaniels and their 'bramble-busters'.

5) Poodles are cool - end of

6) I think the term 'Fit for Function' can and should be applied to toy breeds. Toy breeds were created from other breeds to produce amiable, appealing and easy to manage companion dogs and the mark of a good toy is that they can fulfil this role. In reality, most households need exactly this sort of a dog, rather than one designed to run for miles / guard the flock / root out and kill anything small and furry Personally (as in 'just my opinion') I'd rather see more toy breeds kept as companion dogs and fewer larger working breeds 'dumbed down' for the pet market by having the drive and tenacity bred out because these do not make them especially good household pets (a role for which the breeds weren't created in the first place)

However, once a breed is recognized in this country and bred as a show dog, the breeders need to find homes for puppies and the public starts to expect / assume that all dogs should make good house pets.

Right - that's my contribution. If you are going to rip it to shreds, please do it politely

not all toy breeds were bred as just companions! CCs for example were bred to hunt out and kill anything small anf furry while working on ships, as well as being a food sorce at the end of their working lives... Although yes they were also bred as companions and bed warmers for the cold long nights on the ships!

Thats because toy dogs are dogs not toys there are different sized dogs bred for different things, I'd also wonder how many dogs like great danes are still worked on (if I remember right) wild boar, actually saying that I've not heard of working danes but I have seen them do agility, they are lovely dogs danes.