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talassie
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21-01-2009, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
Both.
I cannot remember seeing a dog on the show where I though 'ohh they love him how nice' whereas I have with other trainers, both ones that I know personally and others on TV...even Mic Martin!!!!
That's interesting Ramble because I remember a programme in which Mic Martin alpha rolled a dog. What is the difference that you see between the two trainers (Mic and Cesar).
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ClaireandDaisy
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21-01-2009, 03:34 PM
At the end of the day we all use the methods we believe in, and absolutely no-one here is going to be persuaded by words rather than experience and results. I know I would never use a trainer who advocated electric shock collars or kicks.
I still haven`t heard anyone put forward a logical explanation of his basic theory - anyone want to try?
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Ace_Animals
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21-01-2009, 03:36 PM
Yup, fair point there too - indeed many trainers will use the "alpha roll" technique in a variety of different cases.
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Sarah27
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21-01-2009, 03:36 PM
I'll try CandD

Dogs need exercise, boundaries, affection. In that order.

That's it
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Ace_Animals
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21-01-2009, 03:37 PM
What aspect of his basic theory would you like us to attempt to explain, ClaireandDaisy?
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Ace_Animals
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21-01-2009, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Sarah27 View Post
I'll try CandD

Dogs need exercise, boundaries, affection. In that order.

That's it
Not forgetting a clear and concise approach towards training and their day-to-day handling. A confused dog will never be a well behaved dog.
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Ramble
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21-01-2009, 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by talassie View Post
That's interesting Ramble because I remember a programme in which Mic Martin alpha rolled a dog. What is the difference that you see between the two trainers (Mic and Cesar).
I don't like Mic Martin either you see....that's why I said even Mic Martin. In fairness to MM though I do like some of his methods and think he genuinely likes MOST of the dogs he works with, unlike CM, I see no love for the dogs coming from him.
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talassie
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21-01-2009, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
In fairness to MM though I do like some of his methods and think he genuinely likes MOST of the dogs he works with, unlike CM, I see no love for the dogs coming from him.
He just doesn't seem to like the owners most of the time.
But the trainers on Dog Borstal often use aversive methods yet don't seem to come in for the same criticism as Cesar Milan
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Ace_Animals
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21-01-2009, 03:49 PM
Do you believe in CM's upbringing that he tells people about? And about his numerous dogs that he owns as part of his own "pack"? Or do you think that entire tale is a made-up fantacy of his? (One of the many things no one will ever know for definite unless someone on here knows him personally!)
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Meg
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21-01-2009, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by CheekyChihuahua View Post
I must be watching different CM programmes than some of you on here I don't see CM doing any of the above to a level that is unacceptable. It's how you perceive such actions I suppose:

Have you watched the video clip I posted in this thread ? It shows a friendly / exuberant/excitable/untrained PBT which may not have been well socialised with other dogs. I do not see a dog aggressive dog at all , look at the dog's body language, the expression/set of the tail/the sound it is making none of them suggest aggression to me. Note how the owner contributes to the dogs problems with the use of his over excited voice . This dog is is according to CM 'in the red zone ' and this dog is 'as bad as it gets'. So he forces the dog into submission by alpha rolling it twice. I am not sure if this is all he does to the dog, in the second roll one moment he has the dog on the floor wrestling with it then there is a cut in the film ...mmmm then we see the dog calm
Pinning a dog to the ground means it can't use the flight response, if people copy this action (or anyone inadvertently does this to a dog which has been forced to submit in this way) they could have their face ripped off.
I think the dog in the clip would benefit from some training and socialisation/desensitisation to other dogs.

prodding (I presume you are talking about when he kind of does the 'dog bite' with his hand, trying to mimic the mother's action when one of her pups is doing wrong) - have used this with my Chis and it works wonders. It isn't physical punishment. It just makes the dog aware that you are not happy about what he/she is doing.

Not sure how many litters you have observed, the dam will first growl a warning at a puppy to put it in its place, she won't jab at it with her paw and will only snarl and nip the puppy as a last resort. If she does other than this she is a bad mother and shouldn't be bred from because she is capable of teaching her puppies aggression.

Choking - I presume you mean on a choke chain. Surely if the dog was uncomfortable, the dog would stop pulling - exactly why the CC is used?

Have you ever seen an animal caught in a trap, it will pull and pull to escape the pain. Likewise a dog will often pull in an attempt to to escape the pain of a choke chain causing the chain to tighten so that the air supply is restricted. Yes it will stop the pulling because the dog can't breath. Try putting a choke cain around your neck and pull it tight and you will see what I mean.

Flooding - not sure what is meant by this.

This has been explained to you in an earlier post and is used by people like CM on fearful hesitant dogs , the good behaviourist will use gradual desensitisation rather than risk causing more problems.

Manhandling - I have not seen CM do this?

I would say he is manhandling the dog in the video and many others I have seen,there are examples in clips on his website.
Somebody mentioned earlier that aggression is accepted by us regarding our dogs. NO. I do not accept aggression in any way, shape or form from my Chis. They may be small dogs but accepting aggression is not the way to go IMO.

Aggression, well that depends on the type of aggression and the reason for it, handle aggression with aggression and you can create more problems.

We all have differing views on how to manage our dogs. CM's methods work for mine and I am sure there are many dogs out there that his methods do not work for. That is the fantastic thing about CHOICE! I don't see that CM is WRONG for his methods just different to other Trainers, that is all
Yes we have differing methods of handling our dogs. I personally think in order to correct unwanted behaviour of any kind we first need to try to work out and understand the reasons why a dog is behaving in a certain way. Is it through fear, lack of socialisation or simply a dog exhibiting natural dog traits (chewing/pulling on a lead/barking/chasing) which just don't happen to fit in with that which humans consider to be 'desirable behavior' and of course some dogs may be predisposed to certain behaviour having inherited a tendency to nervousness from their parents.

Once we have some idea of the reason for a particular behaviour we can then look at a way to address it, and there are a number of methods we can use to do this. Some of us prefer to use methods which do not create yet more problems or destroy the trust we have built with a dog and at the very least do no harm. Dogs don't chose to come and live with us we choose to own them and I think the least we can do is to try to understand them and treat them with a little consideration.

There are some dogs who for a number of reasons need the skills of a good behaviourist or trainer and undoubtedly some of the dogs CM deals with fall into this category but I think there are better methods to use than the ones he chooses to portray .
We have to remember that the CM type of program is primarily for entertainment and the majority of the audience will be pet owners who without having a clue why a dog is doing a certain thing will try to correct the behaviour using methods seen on TV.

.
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