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Gnasher
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06-06-2009, 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
Losing a dog in any circumstances, should surely make you want MORE lovely positive happy times, not living with electric shocks,stringing up,kicking, sticking on prong collars, & pining, Losing a dog should make us all appreciate them more & make their life as AMAZING as possible, just how they do for us.

Id rather a minute of Joy than a hour of pain
And I would rather have a living dog, than a dead dog Mish ! If that meant having to do something as extreme as getting an expert in the use of e-collars to come in and use one on my dog to save his life, then yes, I would do that. And so would you, and so would everyone else, I am absolutely sure of that. We all love our dogs and would do anything for them. We are not talking about electrocution here, just probably only a couple of mild buzzes to the neck, like a vibrating mobile phone, with most dogs. Mine, having a very high prey drive, admittedly may need something nearer to being painful, but IMO the end justifies the means.

And as a user of CM methods myself, as you know, I am very happy to say I have NEVER used any of those methods on my dog that you mention in your first paragraph, so please don't imply that I do.
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Gnasher
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06-06-2009, 07:50 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
A battery operated electric fence will give off the same effect as one plugged into the mains..

Otherwise there is no point to them,... they are MEANT to shock the horse into keeping away from it.

You cant go round wiring up to the mains with a higher voltage.. ...you would be in danger of killing anyone touching it

There is legalisation as to the voltage used , be it mains or battery
Rubbish !! When I say plugged into the mains, I mean connected to a nearby electricity pole thingey - I don't know what it is called, but it's a telegraph pole with a box of tricks to it, and off this comes a line to the wire that runs around the field including going across the top of the stile. It was one of those sheep electric fences, and believe me they knock you off your feet !! Or off your bum, in my case !! It was absolute agony, I had a nasty burn across my thighs and my jodphurs were ruined ! There is no way the macho guys at the stables could have held on to that, they would have been dead !

If what you say is true Jackbox, you had better come up to Northamptonshire and speak to the sheep farmers round here who use them. Some use just the ordinary battery operated ones, but some use the really high voltage ones connected up to the nearest electricity, and there is a ruddy great warning notice on this stile warning walkers to be very careful crossing the stile !! Guess who was the stupid idiot who didn't see or read the notice, because she was so busy looking to see if there were any mushrooms growing in the field !!

Sorry to argue with you, but you are talking nonsense !
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Gnasher
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06-06-2009, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
If I lived in an area where there was a remote possibility that any poisonous snakes where inhabiting , I would not leave me dogs outside for the night... they would be brought inside..

weim1 , this is not aimed at you personally, and I am sorry for your loss...but just as a scenario.. the sad tale Heldengebroed quoted, no amount of training with a shock collar would help in that situation.

It really does not matter how people refer to the stimulus of the shock collar, they cam call it tickled with a feather if they like, the point is ... they are a barbaric form of correction... and give of a shock (or whatever the term you use) to correct the dog...


And if anyone is stupid enough to stick their tongue again the prongs of a battery , then I am sure they will tell you it HURTS
I must take issue too with your last paragraph ! I frequently lick the prongs of those square 9v batteries to see if there is any juice left in them, and even with a brand new one, it doesn't HURT in caps, it tingles.
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Tassle
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06-06-2009, 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
That says it all Weim. I am sure Will Smith's wife would agree ! I don't think a lot of people realise how painful the death is following a snake bite, apart from the horror of the death itself. I am so sorry about your poor dog
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
That is not fair....everyone on here understands the seriousness of loosing a dog through any accident, whether it is a dog who stumbles across a snake or one who gets hit by a car.

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Not fair !! Sorry Tassle, that one's lost on me !
What you were implying was that the people who are anti the use of E-collars do not understand the pain a dog can go through when bitten by a snake. That was the unfair implication.

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
To put it more gently then, I don't think it would be very fair on my dog if - knowing what I know now about how dangerous snakes are in some parts of the USA, thanks to Weim etc (sorry guys, I have forgotten your names !) - to emigrate to the a snakey part of the States knowing that he has a very high prey drive, and not take any steps necessary to train him to leave snakes well alone ! I am not sure "fair" comes into it.

I so agree about what you say about e-collars not being the only way. The issue here though is the seriousness of the situation that CM had with Daddy and I believe some of the other pitbulls in his pack, eg Popeye. We must assume that he knows his own dogs, knows what will work and will not work. He took the steps he needed to take to ensure that Daddy and friends NEVER wanted to go anywhere near snakes ever again. We now know, despite what some members have claimed on here, that far from never taking his dogs out for exercise, Cesar does indeed take his dogs out into the countryside of Southern California, where very dangerous snakes such as rattlers exist. After what happened to his doggy friend, Rocco, he wanted to make absolutely sure that his own beloved dogs didn't go the same way.

I just cannot see what is wrong here. What would have been wrong is for CM, knowing his dogs as he does but ignoring this knowledge, to continue to take them walkies in a snake infested area without doing everything in his power to stop them playing with snakes ! I will grant that there MAY have been less severe measures to use, but would these have worked within 10 minutes? With a dog like a pit, a tenacious and very focussed breed who when they get an idea in their head will follow it through come what may?

I doubt it.
You don't have to put it more gently..I understand that what you are saying, is that, if you had a dog in a situation that you felt was potenitally life threatening to the dog you would use an e-collar.

From what I know about pitbulls, they are a very intellegent breed and very willing to learn.

In the situation we are discussing - I would truely have hoped that CM would have had enough of a relationship with his dog to be able to use other methods. Obviously not, which say more about him that anything else.

And with regards to your last Bolded bit....I honestly think a spray collar would have worked better....the spray comes from the ground and gives the dogs a shock.

But I have found many positive methods work very fast, we were teaching instant downs in my puppy class yesterday - it was amazing how quick we got the downs from the pups - all from making it a fun game....
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Tassle
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06-06-2009, 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
And I would rather have a living dog, than a dead dog Mish ! If that meant having to do something as extreme as getting an expert in the use of e-collars to come in and use one on my dog to save his life, then yes, I would do that. And so would you, and so would everyone else, I am absolutely sure of that. We all love our dogs and would do anything for them. We are not talking about electrocution here, just probably only a couple of mild buzzes to the neck, like a vibrating mobile phone, with most dogs. Mine, having a very high prey drive, admittedly may need something nearer to being painful, but IMO the end justifies the means.

And as a user of CM methods myself, as you know, I am very happy to say I have NEVER used any of those methods on my dog that you mention in your first paragraph, so please don't imply that I do.
Humm - it would have to be a lot higher than that with most dogs.

We have an electric fence round the fields we walk in - if a dog gets on those it sure can react...does it stop it from doing it again...not always.
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Borderdawn
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06-06-2009, 08:37 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Not fair !! Sorry Tassle, that one's lost on me ! To put it more gently then, I don't think it would be very fair on my dog if - knowing what I know now about how dangerous snakes are in some parts of the USA, thanks to Weim etc (sorry guys, I have forgotten your names !) - to emigrate to the a snakey part of the States knowing that he has a very high prey drive, and not take any steps necessary to train him to leave snakes well alone ! I am not sure "fair" comes into it.

I so agree about what you say about e-collars not being the only way. The issue here though is the seriousness of the situation that CM had with Daddy and I believe some of the other pitbulls in his pack, eg Popeye. We must assume that he knows his own dogs, knows what will work and will not work. He took the steps he needed to take to ensure that Daddy and friends NEVER wanted to go anywhere near snakes ever again. We now know, despite what some members have claimed on here, that far from never taking his dogs out for exercise, Cesar does indeed take his dogs out into the countryside of Southern California, where very dangerous snakes such as rattlers exist. After what happened to his doggy friend, Rocco, he wanted to make absolutely sure that his own beloved dogs didn't go the same way.

I just cannot see what is wrong here. What would have been wrong is for CM, knowing his dogs as he does but ignoring this knowledge, to continue to take them walkies in a snake infested area without doing everything in his power to stop them playing with snakes ! I will grant that there MAY have been less severe measures to use, but would these have worked within 10 minutes? With a dog like a pit, a tenacious and very focussed breed who when they get an idea in their head will follow it through come what may?

I doubt it.
The bold bit and the italic bit Gnasher.

If CM does take his dogs in the countryside where Snakes are, why did he inflict a collar on just one? An elderly, well behaved animal that he does most of his "work" with? Surely he has 40 odd other dogs that require "teaching" also? Or does he only take one dog? Its wrong Gnasher, whichever way you look at it, there was absolutely NO need for that poor dog to be zapped on several occasions just so CM could prove a point, he never used it on the dogs that were at risk, and by your own words his other dogs go into the "countryside" (which incidently I dont believe) so why wasnt a more younger, bouncy, "at risk" dog used instead of a well behaved elderly one?
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Jackie
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06-06-2009, 08:43 AM
And if anyone is stupid enough to stick their tongue again the prongs of a battery , then I am sure they will tell you it HURTS

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I must take issue too with your last paragraph ! I frequently lick the prongs of those square 9v batteries to see if there is any juice left in them, and even with a brand new one, it doesn't HURT in caps, it tingles.
As above, if the shoe fits
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Heldengebroed
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06-06-2009, 08:51 AM
A few comments

As to the accident with the snakes. The dogs could have been saved as thier kennel is 8 meters by 4 and large enough to evade a snake.

As to the E-collar. The problem with it is the misconception due to the use of electricity. We all have an idea what electricity has had as effect on us (My worst case was when i did a number 1 on a wire in the field, to my defense it was right in the beginning of those plastic poles and nylon cords with little wires in it; did i know....) we make reference to it even without knowing the device. It is a clean and scalable tool to correct your dog IF NECESSARY and at the right setting. 99% of the dogs will never need one for the other 1% it is a valuable training tool. As with all training tools they can be used and misused

Johan
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Jackie
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06-06-2009, 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post


Rubbish !! When I say plugged into the mains, I mean connected to a nearby electricity pole thingey - I don't know what it is called, but it's a telegraph pole with a box of tricks to it, and off this comes a line to the wire that runs around the field including going across the top of the stile. It was one of those sheep electric fences, and believe me they knock you off your feet !! Or off your bum, in my case !! It was absolute agony, I had a nasty burn across my thighs and my jodphurs were ruined ! There is no way the macho guys at the stables could have held on to that, they would have been dead !

If what you say is true Jackbox, you had better come up to Northamptonshire and speak to the sheep farmers round here who use them. Some use just the ordinary battery operated ones, but some use the really high voltage ones connected up to the nearest electricity, and there is a ruddy great warning notice on this stile warning walkers to be very careful crossing the stile !! Guess who was the stupid idiot who didn't see or read the notice, because she was so busy looking to see if there were any mushrooms growing in the field !!

Sorry to argue with you, but you are talking nonsense !

Thats OK, we seem to be like minded

My point being a electric fence , no matter the source of power , will inflict the same stimulus to do the job entailed.

If the e/fence you sat on , was able to burn your backside and leave a burn mark, I would think the farmer needs to regulate said fence...


A warning on the stile telling people has such a high voltage on his fence ,wont help him if someone has a heart attack through his misuse of the fence..

Edited to add/// Have Been around e/fences most of my life with the horses, and have on many occasion zapped myself with both fixed and battery output.

The shock will vary from a mild buzz to a bloody hard zap..depending on the level of output...

But have to say never been pshyically burned by one.. nor anyone I know!!

But them only speaking from my experience!!!
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rich c
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06-06-2009, 08:59 AM
On the 9v battery on the tongue thing...

Try googling die battery testing tongue...
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