Yep i have to agree

if im pissed off/depressed /upset ,Mav can make me happy!

Flynn cant he cant cope & hides, Mav (& nellie to a lesser extent) will both do things to cheer me up.

Im talking Purely internal feelings, no praise involved!

I think a lot of these behaviours can be self-rewarding. For instance the dog settles on `his` spot and gets pleasure because that is what he does - it is a familiar, safe, approved place and therefore it is rewarding to go there.

I'd like to think so....

But I think I agree with Jean Donaldson. I do think that they will continue behaviour after it is learnt for minimal reward or the hope of reward.....the VI ratio for rewarding is meant to be most effective. Once you put the reward schedule on this then the dog will almost work harder for the expected reward that occassionally appears.

I think my dogs work because they enjoy doing something mentally stimulating - that can involve me or not - often if the jumps are up in the garden my dogs will jump - I don;t have to be there.

Sorry - may have rambled - very tired and a bit confused

No rambling, very well put!

I don't disagree with this, but really this only applies where the dog has been used to getting reward in the first place.

I think that dogs, like humans, do work on the 'what's in it for me' basis, but I just feel that for some dogs, the 'reward' is not as tangeable as the expectance of a treat or the avoidance of punishment.

For these dogs, I wonder if it may possibly be something to do with being part of a 'pack' - an awareness that their owner is the person that provides the food, shelter and protection and this itself produces a strong desire to please to make sure they continue to be accepted as part of this 'pack'...still a selfish motivation, but much more subtle.

Ok....so define a reward?

Does the fact that it is approval/eye contact/tactile or vocal prasie make it any less of a reward?

Or does the dissaproving stare/tension across the shoulders or removal of attention make it any less of a punishment?

...I think we would like to believe that dogs intentionally do things to please us, as Caire says humans are sentient beings and have an 'awareness of self ' and this leads to feelings of empathy for others/having a conscience.

Dogs are thought to be none cognizant (this finding is based on much research), they have no awareness of self (this also applies to very small children who gradually learn self awareness ) .
To give you an example, my dog spends ages making strange noises at the dog she sees in the full length looking glass. She obviously sees something and is possibly 'hardwired' to recognise her own species (a necessary requirement for reproduction ), but she does not recognise the dog in the looking glass as herself, she will even run around the back of the looking glass to find the dog .

In order for one 'being' to wish to please another, they must be aware of self , therefore as dogs are not self aware if follows they are unable to knowingly do things in order to please others .

PS Hali I am glad to enjoyed JDs book, I think she is worth a million CMs

No, I agree absolutely that approval/praise/touch are rewards and that disapproval stare/tension can act as punishment to the right dogs.


But this is what I'm trying to get at - I would argue that those dogs that are happy to work for that type of reward alone and not because they think it will lead to something else (e.g. a treat or the absence of punishment) are the ones that do have a desire to please.

I know its a very fine line and to some extent the 'no such thing as a selfless act' comes into it. But if a child was at school and loved to help the teacher out, even though the only reward was the teacher's praise, wouldn't the teacher still say the child 'was eager to please' - they wouldn't say 'he's only doing it because it makes him feel good'.

I think the same applies to those dogs who get pleasure purely by the approval of its owner (with no thought of treat or threat of punishment) - i.e. I think you can say of them that they have a desire to please.

I know what you are saying....and I agree to a degree.....but I think it comes down to a desire to please us or a desire to please themselves....