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Location: West Yorkshire
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 855
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15-08-2008, 08:18 AM
Having 6 dogs I have to have good management as well, Tilly my youngest will steel from the others if given the chance, if she went to steal Merlin's he would nail her so I feed her in another room.
Originally Posted by Lene 
I don't think YOU can decide who's top dog... You don't speak 'dog'... I would let sort it out for themselves, and then appreciate what they decide..
I think we can do a lot of damage, interfering with nature...
I watch my dogs and any sign of a problem I use distraction or management so that problems don't happen. When Ellie, ex breeding bitch, was neutered I did have problems with her and Bonnie but I learnt very quickly what the trigger was and took steps that the they never got the trigger. Now they are fine together again and have sorted themselves out without a fight.
Each time dogs fight, then next time that fight is worse and this continues to get worse each time until eventually one dog or both are seriously hurt.
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Location: Birmingham UK
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
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15-08-2008, 10:29 AM
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Location: Bristol, uk
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,354
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15-08-2008, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by Patch
What you are thinking is Jess being top dog is the opposite
A genuine top dog is placid, relaxed, and rarely ever uses an forceful approach, usually just a look is enough. What you describe is an `underling` unsure of her place with the other dogs, [ take humans out of the equation, we are not seen as pack by dogs, they know full well that we are a different species and have a different role to play in things in a human way, not a canine one
]. with this i know what you mean, if all 3 are in the kitchen and i am going to give them a titbit, jess will give the look and the other 2 back off, sometimes placing themselfs naturally outside the kitchen door and waiting.
I think this may be the problem......jess has been ill for about 8 months, surgery went wrong and been in bandages, elizabethan collars/medication all this time. So i think she tries to re-establishes her position sometimes. Do you think this could be correct.
It sounds like she is putting herself under pressure to take on tasks she is not equipped to fulfil so she seems to be exhibiting frustration and insecurity, not dominance over the other dogs. Try taking the pressure off her, keep things lighter, distract her with play or training at the times you can tell she might otherwise spark off, and rather than tell her off, set her up to get things right with management over meals etc until she relaxes and takes the pressure off herself too.
Scrapping over food can often because because there is`nt a clear, [ canine ], pack leader in a multi-dog household in terms of the other dogs having confidence in that leader to ensure there is enough for everyone, [ in instinctive mode I mean ], so again is often an insecurity thing, not out of `naughty` type inappropriate use of force or dominance based.
Kai my little man was the leader and as jess grew she decided to try and take over, luckily kai tends to like his own company so stays away from her most of the time but i do know that between them they would both go if pushed so i try to watch when they are togeather. If they argue (never bitten) its a big show and kai will stand his ground and go back at her. If jess and kai were eating in the same room, jess would finish hers and then try and take kai's and i know he wouldn;t let her just have it. So i feed them seperately.
The barking first and running to check things first is the job of a sentry, not a pack leader, so she either does`nt have faith in the other dogs to keep them safe or is trying to appease them by appearing bold enough to take on the sentry job. [ Pack leaders would be at too much risk if they did the sentry job, not a good move for a leader to be doing
].sorry but i have no idea what a sentry is! Could the "appearing bold" be due to her illness, trying to let everyone know she is still strong if you know what i mean.
In that regard, try introducing a `cue` which lets her know you are glad she `alerted` you to something but that you have `checked it out` and all is well. My Gremlin used to be the same and my Fluke too but both have learned that when I look toward what they have barked at, [ or just the same general direction ], and say `thank you`, [ as their cue word ], they then stop and relax again because to them it means I have taken over to deal with `the situation` and have released them from that look-out task at that time.
[ Hope I`ve described that in an understandable way
].**I`m going by what you have written which although is something I have seen in action many times, without seeing her in front of me can only be suggestions given by experience of other dogs and should not be taken as an absolute for any dog not directly seen in person, these are general speculations only - she really needs to have someone observe her to confirm or otherwise if I`m reading her accurately enough just off your description as given.
Hope you don't mind the questions, find it all very interesting and learn all the time with them.
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Location: grangemouth for the moment
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,890
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15-08-2008, 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by Patch
What you are thinking is Jess being top dog is the opposite
A genuine top dog is placid, relaxed, and rarely ever uses an forceful approach, usually just a look is enough. What you describe is an `underling` unsure of her place with the other dogs, [ take humans out of the equation, we are not seen as pack by dogs, they know full well that we are a different species and have a different role to play in things in a human way, not a canine one
]. It sounds like she is putting herself under pressure to take on tasks she is not equipped to fulfil so she seems to be exhibiting frustration and insecurity, not dominance over the other dogs. Try taking the pressure off her, keep things lighter, distract her with play or training at the times you can tell she might otherwise spark off, and rather than tell her off, set her up to get things right with management over meals etc until she relaxes and takes the pressure off herself too.
Scrapping over food can often because because there is`nt a clear, [ canine ], pack leader in a multi-dog household in terms of the other dogs having confidence in that leader to ensure there is enough for everyone, [ in instinctive mode I mean ], so again is often an insecurity thing, not out of `naughty` type inappropriate use of force or dominance based.
The barking first and running to check things first is the job of a sentry, not a pack leader, so she either does`nt have faith in the other dogs to keep them safe or is trying to appease them by appearing bold enough to take on the sentry job. [ Pack leaders would be at too much risk if they did the sentry job, not a good move for a leader to be doing
].In that regard, try introducing a `cue` which lets her know you are glad she `alerted` you to something but that you have `checked it out` and all is well. My Gremlin used to be the same and my Fluke too but both have learned that when I look toward what they have barked at, [ or just the same general direction ], and say `thank you`, [ as their cue word ], they then stop and relax again because to them it means I have taken over to deal with `the situation` and have released them from that look-out task at that time.
[ Hope I`ve described that in an understandable way
].**I`m going by what you have written which although is something I have seen in action many times, without seeing her in front of me can only be suggestions given by experience of other dogs and should not be taken as an absolute for any dog not directly seen in person, these are general speculations only - she really needs to have someone observe her to confirm or otherwise if I`m reading her accurately enough just off your description as given.
thankfuly it didnt last long all is now settled, but poor kaos did feel under a great deal of pressure for a few weeks,
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Location: Bristol, uk
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,354
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15-08-2008, 11:27 AM
Leadership is not sorted out between my pack of lovelies and jess being constantly ill, but how can i help them sort it out.
If jess does go out in the garden barking, i always follow, take a look and say" its ok" and she settles again.
But something i thought was interesting a few weeks ago i was sat on a beach with 10 newfoundlands (as you do
)and about 5 owners. The dogs swam and rested all day except for 2. Jess would swim, lie down next to me but not sleep like the others. She always seems to be people watching, and if another dog walked past she would sit up and watch. Its almost like she doesn't rest. Thats why i thought she was top dog always watching and checking things out and being a bit of a bully with the others at home.
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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15-08-2008, 11:35 AM
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Location: grangemouth for the moment
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,890
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15-08-2008, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by shiba
Narrowing it down i think i have 2 issues
Leadership is not sorted out between my pack of lovelies and jess being constantly ill, but how can i help them sort it out.
If jess does go out in the garden barking, i always follow, take a look and say" its ok" and she settles again.
But something i thought was interesting a few weeks ago i was sat on a beach with 10 newfoundlands (as you do
)and about 5 owners. The dogs swam and rested all day except for 2. Jess would swim, lie down next to me but not sleep like the others. She always seems to be people watching, and if another dog walked past she would sit up and watch. Its almost like she doesn't rest. Thats why i thought she was top dog always watching and checking things out and being a bit of a bully with the others at home.
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Location: Essex UK
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,424
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15-08-2008, 11:55 AM
It may have had something to do with Jess being ill, she may have lost her place in the pack or felt she did, when my beta and sentry dog Jackjack died, Pharaoh became a crazy dog for a while. He's a very insecure submissive dog and was happy right at the bottom of the pack as the runt and scapegoat, but Selkie doesn't push her authority enough to bully him and keep him calm. He didn't know what to do. He tried to be sentry and dominant, but it made him miserable. Suddenly he became dog aggressive on the field, his little doggy dominance wires were all crossed. What my pack needed I realised was a dominant female that would be a bit more pushy... Some research later, Malamutes, Huskys, the sledding dogs seemed to fit this profile, so I set about looking for a good breeder and a bitch puppy (Husky and Malamute kennels are a mine field! Sorry the nice breeders out there on this forum, but I hadn't found this forum at that time and you must know what I mean). Wish I'd seen or heard of the NI at that time, but anyway; I ended up with the wonderful Kismet and there is calm restored in the Household. It took her a while to settle in to her role, but she's perfect now. Pharaoh is calmly back in his place at the bottom of the pack, she has agreed Selkie is Top dog and she handles all the 'middle pack' responsibilities admirably. I do let them sort things out for them selves, but as is my job as the Alpha I step in after a second or two and like you just make my noise heard and they will both shut up and look abashed at me, but it's a delicate thing, you have to get the timing right it has to have been clear who won or they'll just go into it again.
Books... I read a good one while I was learning with Selkie called "Why does my dog?" and I recommend "The dog listener" everything else I have learned by watching wolf packs and watching wolf documentaries, specifically the ones following the 'wolfman'.
Cesar Milan's not bad, but better for one to one relationships with your dog, than for inter-pack relationships, his calm submissive/assertive stuff is too simplistic when trying to understand the complexities of pack dynamics.
book links:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-My-...8801076&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dog-Listener...8801238&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whisperer-Ce...8801296&sr=1-3
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Location: Scottish Borders
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 13,902
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15-08-2008, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Shona
Its funny you mention jess being ill, Royce did get a bit of a bully with vinnie when he became ill with diabeties,
Likewise Hoki has been a bit of a swine to Stumpy whilst recovering from her knee op.
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Location: Bristol, uk
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,354
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15-08-2008, 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy
You can`t interfere with how your dogs feel about each other, but you can insist on good manners. You are top dog, not Jess. It`s your food, not hers. I would do a bit of training in the house with `Leave it` commands and down commands. That way you regain control of the space. ATM it seems your dog feels she has the right to dictate what happens so she needs to be given boundaries.
No she hasn't got the right to dictate to me, this is something i feel very strongly about, i may be giving you that impression but i don't let her, its my food and i decide.
for example, If i have treats for them i sit them togeather, i put the treat near to them with the "leave" command. Jess is desperate to eat it but knows that she cannot until i say. I have been telling her to leave until I decide she can eat it and i give the command "go on then"
Before there dinners, i make them sit before they get there food as i think it helps them realise that i am boss. Never ever have they tackled me over something, and it is something that i would never allow. I can take anything from there mouths with no problems at all.
The problems that we have are between the dogs and not between me and the dogs. I expect my dogs to listen and they will not get what they want until they do what i am asking. Jess seems to boss the other dogs but will never ever get away with it on me or my children.
I am never sure if to intervene too much when she bosses the other dogs or take it that it is dogs being dogs. If i see her give one of the other dogs that look, she will be told off if i feel it is not necessary but sometimes i don't know if i am helping or to stand back. Other times i just divert her attention quickly so that it doesn't go any further.
Sorry but just wanted to clarify that we do have rules.
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