Out of interest, what do we take 'Alpha' to mean? I've got my own definition, but I'm interested in other people's views.

Becs

I think the literal meaning is Alpha from the Greek alphabet meaning the letter A, but I think most people take it as meaning the first in command, the leader, the highest ranking. Thats my interpretation of it anyway

well i have never rolled max or growled at him or anything he already thinks i am loopy and would probably wonder what on earth i was doing. i dont think i know enough about this subject to debate it nor do i have any strong opinions on it. i just know that when we first got max he tried to boss my kids about and was always jumping on them and treating them like his litter mates. once they got their confidence with him and could stand firm and issue firm 'no' s then he was more settled and we all got on better. he does seem to know he is last (even the cat and guinea pig get fed before him) and he is very accepting of this. i dont even know if thats what you mean but if we are a pack max knows he aint a leader of it

I completely agree with not pinning or growling. To some dogs it's terrifying, to others (like Satch) it's all just a game - as a human, I simply can't mimic the correct posturing or type of growl to sound anything like a dog.

There's also a school of thought that states that pinning some dogs is a particularly dangerous thing to do as they perceive this as a direct death-threat. On the other hand, I've seen puppies quickly, harmlessly and effectively submit as a result of pinning.

Becs

I suppose over the 30 odd years of having dogs things and thoughts can and do change, as a kid we had two dogs, they were my friends, I didnt have to boss them about the word alpha was never in our minds, we had our dogs and that was it they were good dogs, as I got older and more involved in dogs, I found people telling me this and that on how to raise a dog to be a good one (did it before with out any schooling on the matter) I had a samoyed that I was told, because he was a bit full of himself, had to be taught I was the Alpha. hmmm well I tried the heavy handling thing that certainly didn't work, and I was lucky I didnt get bitten, in fact I think that made him worse to be honest, because after that he challenged EVERYTHING and became real hard work, I now have Malamutes. I found that just because of the hair factor I didnt want them in my bedroom, on my furniture etc and I just let them know in the early days they dont go on there or in there, no big deal, my dogs do listen to me, they are not perfect, I feel that we get on fine, dont know if they think I am alpha or not, and to be honest I dont care really if they do or dont as long as they are sociable, friendly, resonably well behaved, dogs, and I accept that with other dogs they may have issues but that is a trait within the breed, and that no matter how much I force myself as alpha this part is NOT going to change. so I am in my older years begining to chill out about the whole Alpha thing

MO

i personally dont think that dogs see us as 'dogs'. I am not sure what they see us as, but i like to think to them we are a 'superior' animal that they look up to want to be with (err, except when their is a tasty rabbit running in their path!)

Of course some dogs havent had a good start in life because of humans, and so see us as animals to avoid, like zebra try to avoid lions as much as possible. My egyptain, Honey, for example...for many generations they have only suvived through AVOIDING people..the ones that got too close, were caught and killed, or poisoned...so they did not go on to breed...the ones that stayed away were rewarded by their shyness by passing on their genes...so the next generation also were shy. So Honey took a long time (still ongoing) to trust me, and as i understand it, she is going AGAINST her natural instincts (which would be to run and hide from me). She is off the lead now, where there is space for her to run, and if a stranger appears, she is no-where to be seen, when they have gone she reappears back by my side. If their are other dogs around she will tail-waggingly go up to them to investigate, she has never been afraid of other dogs. So perhaps you can see why i conclude that they dont think of us as fellow canines.
As for the alpha theory, i have no idea. I think that people want a theory, and like to work with theories. But people have successfully trained dogs for many purposes (hence all the breeds we have now) over quite literally thousands of years... without any of our new theorys... so why do we place such importance on them today? To be honest i have been training dogs since before i owned one, when i was a kid (i took all the neighbours dogs out, and had them doing tricks, and walking to heel etc) i didnt read a single book, i dont even remember how i did it... its a simple rule of thumb that if an animal is having fun and getting rewards... it will learn. That is easy for stuff you want them to do....but how about behaviours you dont want.... that is the real tricky bit, and my theory is that 'theories' were invented to help those who couldnt figure it out, and had to find some way of explaining to everyone why the dog does what it does. The only problem with this theory is that every single dog on the planet is different, and what works for one doesnt mean it will work for them all. each has different needs, wants and functions, some act like they would do fine on their own in the wild, and some act like they might die if they were to leave your lap.
So in conclusion, i do believe dogs descended from some form of wolf, which undoubtably live in 'packs' but even if we were to study them our whole lives, we can only guess whats going on, what they are thinking, we can never know the full truth. Perhaps we should take certain theories with a pinch of salt, and not let theories rule our lives, they are after all 'theory' which means not quite yet fact. Perhaps we should think of the word theory to mean 'mystery'...not yet fully explained...

Simple! Over evolved monkies that are not very good at climbing trees.

I don't know about 'pack theory' being a modern phenomenon. For as long as we've had domesticated dogs until relatively recently they were seen as just that, dogs. Archaeologically, we've always had a symbiotic relationship with dogs, and may have always seen them as companions and 'part of the family', but I think the ideas of buying dog-specific toys, specialist foods, their own beds and letting them in any way dictate household life is a relatively modern concept. JMO, but I think we're probably seeing far more behavioural issues than ever before - genetics, breeding and neurological problems aside. Previously, dogs slept on the floor, were fed scraps after the humans had finished eating, and the idea of going to a shop specifically for dog toys would've been ridiculed. I'm not saying this was all necessarily a good thing, or even that the dogs way back then were even happy. I just think, up until recently, we've always mimicked a pack, but probably haven't realised it or called it a theory.

I see a human/dog family as being a surrogate pack. Dogs may not be wolves, and our influence on their breeding may have reduced their ancestral instincts somewhat, but in countries where dogs are allowed to roam excessivley, packs still form, and still adhere to a hierarchical structure.

I don't see being 'alpha' as having to dictate your dog's every move, or having to be harsh, cruel or malicious, but IMO it's a mind-set. Myself and my OH run and own this house, our dogs do not. Just as I wouldn't allow a child to barge me out of the way to get passed, I won't allow Satchmo to either. I wouldn't allow a child of mine to snatch anything, I won't allow my dogs to either. I know of more than one rottie owner who's dominant dog has been given free rein and subsequently cornered their owners over sunday lunch.

I convinced a neighbour of mine to take her year old male rescue lab x collie to my trainer for basic obedience classes - he was a lovely dog but had no manners around the house; e'd started growling at children who came to visit her, especially when she gave them biscuits or chocolate etc; she was tearing her hair out with him. I went with her - during one of the talky bits in the class, her boy climbed onto the seat next to her. My trainer took one look at her and said "sorry to be rude, but you're single aren't you?". My neighbour went very red and asked "how did you know?". My trainer explained that she'd substituted a relationship with a male human for her dog, and unwittingly allowed him to believe he was the 'man of the house' - if he wanted to lie on the sofa, it was his house and he bloody well would! He'd started to growl at these children as he saw my neighbour giving away what he thought was rightfully his.

Everyone's got different ideas on how to raise and live with dogs, and that's cool . Just wanted to add my two-pennith.

Becs

Becs, i thought that was a wonderful post!

What do you guys think if i came up with a theory that said 'we should treat our dogs as we do our kids'. Would we end up with the same problems some people experience?
It is a theory of mine that some people are unknowingly scared of what their dogs could do, so let them off with things, or dont know that they are letting them off with things... is it time we stopped treating them like 'dogs' and looking to see what to do in a 'pack', how about treating them like people, they are afterall in our houses, and should behave like people behave.
If a kid for example is begging for a sweetie, clawing at your leg, you dont just give it. you ask them to take it nicely, or do something in return (put that tv off and sit nicely on the couch, or something!) Maybe its madness, but its something that Becs said...we are buying them toys, they sleep in beds (theirs or ours), if they touch something they arent meant to, we say 'no' or smack their fingers (i am talking about kids now) would it be a bad thing to treat them like children?

LOL Jess, I dunno about treating them like kids - my 3 year old niece is allowed to get away with far more than my dogs. Such as smacking her parents round the face when she's having a tantrum. If Satch did the equivalent, he'd be very much told off and sent to bed; my niece just gets laughed at, as if it's all so cute (!)

I wonder if sometimes it's a case of treating them too much like children? My dogs are everything to me; they're adored, well-fed, exercised, played with, trained (Satchmo loves training), and generally fussed over, but they're still dogs.

Ever watch 'Brat Camp', 'Little Angels' or 'Who Rules the Roost'? That's exactly why dogs shouldn't be treated like kids

Becs