HI, as for irish staffs, "They are a strain of Stafford that were originally bred in Ireland", a bit debatable that, considering that they have English Bull Terrier and APBT blood in 'em. I know some people will argue this and slag me off, but i don't care, it's true, when i asked an irish staff breeder what the dogs were"made of", a bit if every bloody thing, Staffie, English bull, and he said, there's some of Ed Reid's pitbull blood in these 'uns. As for KC standard Staffies, they look nothing like Irish Staffs, and the "Irish Staff" is not recognised by the KC. Some of the "gamest"? Irish dogs were straight crosses in to an English Bull terrier. So Ch. Psycho, a very famous Irish Staff, was 50% English Bull Terrier, 50% Staff. As i read in a forum earlier, a British Bulldog x Staffie being sold as an "old tyme bulldog", but i can't imagine this being as good as, let's say a Leavitt O.T. Bulldog. Yet it is classed as a "first generation" Old tyme bulldog". By using this principle, If i were to cross a staff with an E.B.Terrier, would i then have a first generation "Irish Staff"? As for the Irish Staff, Personally I think they are GREAT, full of beans, a real little "packet of dynamite"

I dont think Psycho was a straight cross, I thought it was more like 1/16 EBT. Ch Stormer was a straight cross who was only ever bred once to an APBT bitch called Tess who I think was a daughter of Reids Skipper? (contrary to what Shaun Barker wrote on his pedigrees), Rickey I think was a straight cross there are lots with that blood. It is well documented there are some lines with EBT & APBT blood added. Best was always bred to best with no regard for looks. However there are some strains that are made up of pure stafford too and some dogs were KC registered.

IMO there is no breed called the Irish Stafford just that there are some dogs that are Irish bred or descend from dogs imported from Ireland. Obviously if you go back far enough all dogs descend from England - the native home of the Stafford - but most of the well known "irish" lines/dogs did originate in Ireland, the Dublin Reds, Psycho, Stormer came from Ireland, Flynn too with some having the above added. I think nowadays the amount of this blood is insignificant most have been bred like to like and type to type for quite a few years now.

No Psycho wasn't a straight cross, the EBT was quite a way back in the ped as far as I knew.

The thing about Irish staffs is that papers were hung for a huge amount of the dogs, as laura rightly says, so its hard to say whats what unless you were actually there at the time when matches were common and the top dogs were being bred. Now Ive got mates who used to match dogs and they used any dog which was good and game, staffs, pitbulls crosses you name it, they didnt breed for a specific look or style, just the best to the best.

Raggadood has it almost right, in the days of the testeas mor (sp) dogs were used and bred which were game, didnt matter how they were bred or how they looked.

The truth of the matter is that the Irish staff is compiled mostly from game KC and non KC stock (the non KC often being rangier and more athletic since they were bred for gameness not show winning looks) EBTs and APBTs.
A lot of the good dogs were bred in Ireland, now the irish are famous for being good at breeding a lot of animals, the best pitdogs, the best coloured vanners and cob horses, the top greyhound strains, and some cracking digging and baiting dogs, so its hardly surprising the lads from across the water bred many of the dogs with CH and GR CH in their pedigrees. But the breed is not soley Irish, there have been strains of game bred pit dogs since man first discovered the "sport" of dogfighting and in the days of old they were referred to simply as "bulldog" or "bull n terrier".

The ex pit men I know used to allways call their dogs bulldogs, bullies or gamedogs, the name "Irish" staff is a fairly recent one in comparison to the length of time dogfighting has been around.
Sorry if this offends anyone, I can assure you I dont fight dogs, I value my animals too much, but I do take an interest in the history of my breed and what makes them the dogs they are.
Dont believe everything thats written is all I will say as a final word on this subject. I once was given a copy of an underground pit journal by a friend who knew of my interest in sporting dogs and I showed it to a good friend of mine who used to be a pit man (He got raided, caught, banned and served time - he no longer keeps or matches pit dogs so I guess the law does work! ) and he read it, tossed it aside and told me it wasnt fit to wipe his bum with, he was there and he was at the ringside watching every sordid moment.

A lot has been said and written about dogfighting, but you cannot go on what you are told unless you are in that circle and I would trust what I have been told by the old pitmen (and some of them are getting on in years! ) more than I would ever trust what is said on some of these ISBT websites and "historical accounts"

i still dont understand why irish staffies are still bred for their 'gameness' when they arent bred for fighting anymore? and why do people keep this dogs in a fighting state? as in underweight

Good post CBT like most things with history unless you were there you cannot say for sure one way or the other what went on, only those who were there know and the rest of us can only speculate. Not sure when the term actually came about, I have some old magazines in the 1988 ones they refer to Irish bred Staffords but earlier ones they refer to sporting staffords.

It is true for the most part if you go back far enough most of the strains go right back to old KC lines so they did all stem from the same spawn, just you have variations in every type I suppose and people adding better dogs to the line regarlesss of looks or background as I said before best to best. Nowadays more people are becoming interested in the alternative types, which can only be a good thing, and they are breeding like to like and type to type still with function in mind and there are also those in KC circles who are doing their best to breed "old time" staffords in body and spirit - long may it continue. I think the future is bright certainly I suppose the past is just that - the past. Its the future and what is done with the dogs in the future that counts.

Kirstie yeah I thought that was right I was sure he was not a straight cross.

Fighting dogs were not kept underweight, at least not by the pitmen I know
they had "keeps" which was a training and fitness programme which consisted of many hours of walking, running beside a bike, treadmill work, hand rubbing, play, and careful attention to diet only the best food being given!
these dogs were brought into a peak of fitness, so that they were hard with muscle and gleaming,
to match a dog which was underfed or undernourished would have meant they would lose the fight (and lots of money) so that is not something that was practiced.

the reason people like dogs to be game bred is because they admire the fiery, self assured bold characteristic in their dogs, nothing more, nothing less.

They are by no means underweight Jenny they are at their peak performance usually when you see them stripped it has taken a lot of time and dedication to get them into that shape - fighting fit.

You are more used to seeing less well conditioned staffs that is probably why you thikn they are underweight.

If they were underweight do you think they would be able to perfrom half as well as they do whether it be weighthpull or running alongside a bike for 10 miles or indeed the old pit dogs? The truth is that is the dogs at their best when they are in peak condition, underweight dogs would not perform because they would be worn out and have nothing to give. Some people pride themselves on keeping the dogs trim and lean and as they once were, it takes lots of time and dedication to have a nice fit well conditioned dog it does not take much to have a fat uncondtioned couch potato

hmmm the fat couch potato staff - I have one of those Laura!!!

i read somewhere that even when they stripped down the pitbulls for fighting, they were only kept at that weight shortly b4 the fight and not all the time as its not healthy.

fair enough for people who want to have fit dog, but i do think some go to the extremes, i dont consider many staffs on here to be couch potatos, they certainly arent fat.