good point ian . i originally posted this thread for avariety of views and have to say there are some very responsible and valid points made thanx

sorry jack in the box youve lost old dolly there . maybe this person was a first time breeder and was unsure wat they were doing . or maybe the dogs got loose i dnt know who your refering to but then im an ethicle breeder and as long as i confirm to breedin ethicly and my dogs are well maintained and treated i dnt get involved in other ppl ways or methods of breeding i dnt know the person so there for cannot judge a stranger

I agree to a certain extent but I was told by a top judge and breeder that the best show bitch doesnt neccesarily produce the best puppies and they sometimes keep two from a litter, one to show one to breed from.
I think it helps if you show and have a good knowledge of the breed standard as you can pick a stud to improve your lines, for example I need to shorten my heads so I've made sure the dog i choose was a bit small in the head.
I also health check both the bitch and dog.

Have to diasgree there, if you want to improve a point (i.e. heads) you put your bitch to a dog that has the correct head not another fault (i.e. small head)
Never breed your bitch to a dog that has the opposite of what your bitch has, only ever breed to one that is correct for that breed. Otherwise you're just breeding in more faults.
Becky

I'd say read these two articles:

Thinking about breeding? Think about this...

A question of breeding

A dog 'proven' in the show ring has obviously demonstrated it is a very good example of the breed judged by the breed standard by more than one 'expert', as opposed to someone in their backyard thinking their dog is.

Obviously got you mixed up with the other person. but thought i reconized your avatar , my mistake.

Thats exactly what she said "the dog got loose"

Nice to see an ethical breeder, one who follows all breed testing, i.e heart scoring, to many people think having there dogs passed fit by their vet is good enough, so the more who do it properly the better.

Jackbox

Breeding good pups isn't all about showing in my opinion. I think if a dog has proven itself whether in the show ring, as a work dog, trials dog, obedience dog etc and the owner has done all relevant health checks, said dog is of impeccable temperament and there are homes waiting for the pups, then breeding a litter is fine.

Hopefully its ok for a non-breeder and non-Shower myself to have a little input, well not input as such but food for thought maybe

When dogs do well in the ring, there would logically be a tendency for approaches from other breeder/showers to use those dogs for breeding. Provided health checks are done and betterment is the genuine goal, that makes perfect sense.

But, is there a tendency to use the same pairings a lot and subsequent pairings of offspring from those litters ?

I dont mean inbreeding direct littermates [ though it does happen as does parent to own pups....] so I`ll try to explain what I mean :

Dog A paired with dog B = litter 1
Dog A paired with dog C = litter 2
Pup from litter 1 paired with one from litter 2 = litter 3
Dog A paired with one from litter 3 [ its grandchild basically ], = litter 4
One from litter 2 paired with one from litter 4 = litter 5

You can imagine the combinations I`m sure [ or rather I hope, thats if I have put it in a remotely comprehensible way, I know what I mean if no one else does ]

So moving on, do those sort of close breeding pockets happen much, either because of geographical element or a preference for a particular initial line from dogs A and B ?

I cant help but wonder if this sort of thing is quite common, and if it is, if it makes genepools too `insular` between a handful of breeders.
If those lines are proven healthy and of excellent quality, [ so far ], all well and good in that respect, but is it a good thing to have the same lines popping up frequently between just a few breeders perhaps even trading on the `names` in there for prestige / ego / whatever ?

Would people be swayed much by one line with names of dogs they recognise rather than other lines which have`nt been Shown, [ because the other lines` breeders are just not in to Showing for whatever reason ], but are of equally good health tests and Standard quality ?

What I`m trying [ very badly ] to ask is, do Show dogs which have done well consistantly mean a smaller genepool being used because of `names` ?

Does it happen much and is there an effect of `high strung` dogs because of close breeding lines ?

I ask because I`m not a breeder or Shower so I have very limited experience of this sort of thing happening, [ have seen a little of it from the sidelines so to speak ], so I really don`t know how widespread it is and if its problematic to breeds on the whole.

I must make clear, I am not casting aspursions on all breeders, I know there are some very ethical breeders, I`m looking at this more as a hypothetical than anything as I have so little knowledge on the Show world in this respect !

I have seen a few Pedigree lines which seem to have the same relatives appearing rather a lot so thats what got me musing on it when I read the initial thread post - must be a good one to have even got me thinking in the first place, well done Dollyknockers :smt044

In an ideal world..... but the show world is far from ideal!

A breed standard is a blue print for 'perfection' in any given breed...and is something every breeder should be aspiring to.

I was talking with a friends only the other day about this.

Someone had mentioned about 'getting their eye in' with a breed as they had watched them ringside for X number of months/years.
In my opinion, 'getting your eye in' from ringside (and what is being show regularly in a particular area), is not necessarily at one with the breed standard!

Judges (all rounders usually) will hang about around the breed ring, and see what todays judge is putting up, and wont even bother familiarising themselves with the breed standard....

How many dogs in the show ring would actually be able to do the job they were bred to do?

Right, the show world is far from ideal! Polictics, lobbying and back-stabbing. Who'd imagine so many "cats" at a dog show?

Wrong, a breed standard is not a blueprint for 'perfection' in any given breed. The standard would be nearer to an 'ideal' but should only ever be understood to be a summary of the statistical normal quantities and qualiites of the breed. A dog which hits all the right numbers, is a complete example of the breed but it is unlikely to be perfect. It may even appear slightly average!

In my opinion, the answer to the original question would first be, 'why do you want to breed?'
It should be that you feel that your dogs have something essential to contribute. If that's the case one would hope that you are significantly conversant with the breed and it's standard and understand the concepts of genotype and phenotype!

Do you need to show your dog to breed?
No
But if you aren't sure your dog has something to contribute other than pups to a list of dogs already needing homes, then you should definitely check your dog's breed conformation and that could be done at show.

Judges will always have their own opinion and some have less integrity than others but they at least ought to give a qualified response to whether or not your dog should be bred. You should not be in a hurry and a second opinion would be wise.
We should always err on the side of caution. Sadly it's too late for some breeds