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Patch
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Patch is offline  
Location: Virtual Showground
Joined: Aug 2006
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22-11-2006, 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by teenytiny View Post
I wouldnt have him done until he was at least 2 years old. Dogs need the hormones to grow to their ideal adult bone structure. My vet nurse told me that dogs are not fully matured until they are 2 so i would do it after then.

Thats not true at all. The only breed which should be left longer is Rotties and thats to do with a particular anomoly in Rotties specifically prone to bone cancer.
Most small breeds are fully physically mature at 8 or 9 months on average.

Other than that, in bitches, all adult hormones are in place at 5 months of age, those being the hormones necessary which are related to growth and development.
The `norm` for neutering boys has been 6 months since the year dot - certainly more than long enough to be apparent if that was a problem in dogs over many many years of veterinary science.
Mental maturity has nothing to do with hormones. This is what so many people don`t seem to understand.
For example :
My eldest collie [ a rescue ], was not snipped until 2 years old - he`s still a big kid at the age of now 12 years.
My next oldest boy was done at 5 months [ before I got him ] and he has always been far more mature mentally.

Upbringing and ongoing life experiences are what shapes a dog, not the age when neutered.
Having had involvement in rescue for a great many years, and seeing dogs of all ages pre and post neuter, I can say hand on heart that in my extensive experience younger dogs at the time are no different to those done older in terms of physical or mental maturity.

All the most recent research hows that to be true, and without trying to sound snotty, the vet nurse mentioned is not the expert - the research vets of many years experience, and those who have seen hundreds of pre and post neutered dogs of all ages and breeds first hand are.

If I had a pup, [ unlikely as that is as I only take on adult rescues ], I would have no qualms whatsoever about the snip at 6 months.
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Trouble
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22-11-2006, 01:27 AM
Had this conversation with my vet last night and he recommends 11 months for males, my previous vet recommended 9 months, although Syd was actually done at 11 months and there have been absolutely no changes in his temprement at all, he is just as gorgeous as ever.
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SarahJ
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22-11-2006, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
Thats not true at all. The only breed which should be left longer is Rotties and thats to do with a particular anomoly in Rotties specifically prone to bone cancer.
Most small breeds are fully physically mature at 8 or 9 months on average.

Other than that, in bitches, all adult hormones are in place at 5 months of age, those being the hormones necessary which are related to growth and development.
The `norm` for neutering boys has been 6 months since the year dot - certainly more than long enough to be apparent if that was a problem in dogs over many many years of veterinary science.
Mental maturity has nothing to do with hormones. This is what so many people don`t seem to understand.
For example :
My eldest collie [ a rescue ], was not snipped until 2 years old - he`s still a big kid at the age of now 12 years.
My next oldest boy was done at 5 months [ before I got him ] and he has always been far more mature mentally.

Upbringing and ongoing life experiences are what shapes a dog, not the age when neutered.
Having had involvement in rescue for a great many years, and seeing dogs of all ages pre and post neuter, I can say hand on heart that in my extensive experience younger dogs at the time are no different to those done older in terms of physical or mental maturity.

All the most recent research hows that to be true, and without trying to sound snotty, the vet nurse mentioned is not the expert - the research vets of many years experience, and those who have seen hundreds of pre and post neutered dogs of all ages and breeds first hand are.

If I had a pup, [ unlikely as that is as I only take on adult rescues ], I would have no qualms whatsoever about the snip at 6 months.

I cant agree more!! good post
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Cumbrian Lass
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22-11-2006, 05:11 AM
There have been some good arguments given here, and Patch, well said!

If you are still concerned, then read the following:

http://www.dogsey.com/dog-articles.php?t=12202

and if you are still unsure, ask yourself why you have adopted a dog, signed a legally binding contract saying that you will not breed that dog, and still wonder if now is the right time?!. Can you honestly 100% guarantee that your dog will not 'accidentally' breed?

If you are having problems training him not to pull on lead, then try your local dog training classes who will also be able to help with all aspects of his training needs, giving yourself and your family support.
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zepthedep
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Location: sheffield
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22-11-2006, 09:04 AM
Hi All
first off how refreshing to find a site that isnt just geared up to " chop and crop " at the first opertunity.
Good post Patch but I would go even further ,its not just certain cancers that early castration affects, but also growth rates. There has been alot of new evidence that large or heavy breed dogs that are castrated early can suffer from H/D and other joint problems in later life , in rotts it has long been known that early castration leads to under deveolpement of the skull and chest but it is now thought to affect the whole growth rate, here are some links http://www.caninesports.com/EarlySpayConsiderations.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/p...-hormones.html
[ Admin, hope these links are ok ,if not sorry please delete]
as all ready suggested this is realy a personal decission , and realy your pup just seems to be being that , just a pup.
imo if i had to ?, I would not castrate untill at least 18mths of age [male], and at least let a bitch have at least 1 season , reason as i would know everything is working as it should.

Remember there is no substitute to good basic training, and its fun too
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IsoChick
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22-11-2006, 01:24 PM
We castrated Max at about 7mths old, as he is around entire breeding bitches a lot.

It has not changed him from being a naughty, bouncy, mental puppy at all!!

I have noticed that he is not humping as much (he used to try and hump his mum and sister who are breeding bitches) but as long as it doesn't become an obsession with him, I'm not too bothered
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madmare
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22-11-2006, 10:18 PM
Over the years I have had many dogs of different breeds, some have stayed entire and some have been nuetered or spayed at various ages.
With the male dogs I have found the best ones were all nuetered at around 6 months. It has not changed thier growth or coats in anyway and it has helped stop hormone driven habits forming which if nuetering is done later may not help as the behaviour has become a habit.
My JRT that I have now was cocking his leg at 4 months and as he approached 6 months was starting to show a very great interest in trying to hump any female in sight and growling if anyone tried to interfere. So at 6 months he was castrated and the behaviour stopped and he never growls at anyone or anything now and has the sweetest nature.
My lab was also castrated at 6 months he grew in equal size to his litter brothers and was a beautiful dog and my GSD was also nuetered at 6 months and he was fantastic.
I lost an entire dog to testicular cancer, had an entire dog that would try and escape to get to bitches I had him castrated aged 2 1/2 but unfortunatly the behaviour had become a habit. I have other entire dogs that have been no real problem but not as easy as early castrated ones.
There have been others but this just gives you a view on my personal experiences.
My advice is to castrate or spay earlier rather than later.
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whoami
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26-11-2006, 01:55 PM
Having done a little study on this whilst working on assignments for dog courses I have done, I'm still not sure that neutering early is the right thing to do. If I had a pup just like yours I would not be considering castration as an answer to any behavioural or training issues. In some situations it may help along with a programme of training or behaviour shaping. I would not be considering castrating such a crossbreed until at least a year old. This is my personal opinion. I would leave it that long to allow good development of bone, muscle, ligaments, tendons...and maybe character. I would then have a dog castrated as I wouldnt wish to be responsible for accidental puppies, up to that time I would be very vigilant but would rather not have to for all the dogs life. (selfish but true ) If the dog was a smaller type then I would consider castration from about 9/10 months, larger not until at least 18 months.
As you have your dog through a rescue you will of course have to abide by whatever the agreement states. I see entirely why rescues have these stipulations.

Karen
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