No problem everyone has their own opinion and their own degree of knowledge. There are truths, half truths and down right lies and it takes a lot of skill and determination to get to the truth, perhaps forums like this help but I doubt it, those with the most entrenched opinions are also those who are the most unlikely to listen and the most likely to be wrong as they are not open to lateral thinking.

Hmmm thats odd my GSD's like my BC's were all trained to do the job they were orginally bred to do ie herd/work sheep-not schutzhund, WT, Manwork & yes my GSDs were from Germany Showlines & I've never seen a Schutzhund bred dog do that-but there might be one when i get my next GSD

It's not the showing that spoils breeds but the breeders interpretation of the standard

My friends Bulldogs can breath & walk normally-but then his are very fit

Hi Jackie...
Not sure i understand what you're getting at and if you were resopnding to me...?????

I am sure , as this thread has now had a new angle put on it, that some breeds benefit from showing in a lot of ways, but I am just as sure that some have not benefited from it in the past and it would be naive to think otherwise. Not everyone is reputable or has the breeds best interests at heart are they??? Even in a show ring? There is good and bad everywhere, that's all I was and am saying. Good breeding is ot limited to the show ring and bad breeding is not limited to outside of the show ring.
I don't think showing is entirely resposible for the problems in some breeds, but surely there must be some reponsibility there???
Ailsa x

I agree with this, but surely the breeders wouldn't be interpruting the standard if they weren't going to show???

Would really like to stress at this point I have absolutely nothing against showing, I just think there's good and bad everywhere...

I think the bulldog is an interesting example to use in a criticism of dog showing. I've seen some horribly-bred bulldogs around, and can't help but agree with the idea that anybody who breeds a dog that struggles to walk is an irresponsible breeder, regardless of whether that dog fits the breed standard! On the other hand, heldengebroed argues that bulldogs can't fulfil their original purpose...

Good! We neither condone nor tolerate bullbaiting in this country, so nobody wants a bulldog to fulfil its original purpose. On the same point, nobody is going to source bulldog puppies from working lines, so breed shows really are the primary forum for current and prospective owners to meet and exchange advice and experiences.

It's natural for a breed to diverge from its working past as it is bred for the show ring or pet homes, and unless you want a working dog, that's not necessarily a problem. Many of the terriers, for example, had character traits which made them great at their work, but quite incompatible with family life. Breeders have worked hard over recent years to breed Kerry blues less dog-aggressive than was once acceptable, whilst retaining their characteristic gameness. The same is true in show-bred staffies and other dogs originally bred for fighting. If they hadn't, the breeds would have eventually died out.

It ought to be remembered as well, particularly in this age of "novelty dogs", that showing does moderate extremes in some breeds. Take for example the grimly overbred yorkies and chihuahuas, selected for their tinyness and sold for thousands of pounds. We can still go to the show ring and see what healthy examples of the breed ought to look like.

Out of interest, is there a massive difference now between 'working' lines and 'showing' lines??????

Yep, as can people working sheep dogs - they have to respond to instand and fast cue changes for stopping, down, inching round, speeding up, every imaginable cue involved , [ laymans version for descriptive purposes ].

My hearing dog [ works for my deaf dogs ] has learned left and right at distance, instant stop, speeding up, slowing down etc, and a lot more :smt001

Dont know about the Aussie`s hips as he is also an agility dog and poor hips dont allow dogs to do agility well.

I do believe the worst thing to happen to the Border Collie breed was being allowed in the conformation ring as the beauty of the breed to me is the diversity of appearance and their natural brains. I hate seeing a line of what I consider `clone dogs` [ appearance wise ] in a breed which doesnt need a certain `look` to do the many jobs they are renowned for.

Bulldogs are a shameful example of poor health imo. One guy a few years ago bred some back to how they originally looked - taller, very healthy, able to scale a 6 foot fence as easily as other athletic breeds, [ I`m talking demo style as is often shown at displays with Alsations etc ], and the KC refused to acknowledge them iirc yet they were more purebred to how they *should* be than any you will see in a show ring.

If you look at many Alsatians in US show rings, they are cripples, travesties of the dog world.

Certain breeds are so exaggerated for appearance` sake, the health of the dog seems to be the last consideration. What use a fully functioning healthy heart and sight and hearing etc if a dog can do no more than hobble and sway almost uncontrollably as they walk, or has eyes which pop out when they sneeze ?

I did some Junior handling many years ago with my Alsatian, and he was pretty much laughed out of the ring by the adults at one show - his back was too level and healthy for the show ring apparently...


Its all well and good the show ring versions being,
[ alledgedly ], healthy but for whichever breeds do well in the ring and have careful a breeder doing their utmost to do every health and genetic test possible before they breed, and being careful of who buys the puppies, there are hundreds of money hungry charlatans out there ready to farm those breeds regardless of genetics etc and far too many people out there willing to pay those farmers for what they are churning out just so they can have whatever is the latest ` in ` breed or look that they saw on the telly at Crufts.

I think, when commentry is done, they should list the known health problems in each breed they are discussing as well as telling people the `plus points` to look for.

If I ruled the world :smt077 believe me there would be some changes in what dogs in show rings would look like and all unhealthy breeds would be banned from showing until they were bred back to good health and proper mobility.
[ Dachs, Peke`s and Bulldog breeders especially, take note ]

I have seen good and bad at shows within our breed,one had a very iffy temperament and actually bit his owner,this happened at crufts,yet this dog was made up
Like has already been said you get good and bad breeders,even within the show world.
I show but think it is responsible for setting the trend for fashionable dogs

I was responding to the post I quoted

Odly enough many people class GSDs as a guarding breed-as in guard dog they are not they are a sherpherding breed & the only bad affect showing has had is make them too popular & encourage peole to breed from pets that don't fit the breed standard(as in white LC GSDs they could not work german sheep but the fancy that promote them are not show people)

I have no problem wth people not being interested in showing, but they breeds with now banned work(dog fighting, bull baiting etc etc)wouldn't exist with the show bench dogs. I do get tired of the general public thinking all show spend all their time being show dogs most don't mine looked beautiful & clean yesterday, today JD has been gardeing & mouse hunting & is a right little scruff ba again

I have a friend who does obedience with her Show bred Irish Setter, however when she exercises him as opposed to training he goes into gun dog mode & indicating all & every sort of game his mum btw is a full champion & was in her youth a working gundog !

You cannot generalie about breeds & sorry but it is the breeders who produce the dogs & some are toally kennel blind & when they judge they put up the type they breed In the UK most judges are breeders BTW