'fraid in this case the owner is the only one to blame, they did it.......

My FiL always says all the training I do with Louie (positive)will break his spirit - but then what does he know, he hasn't bothered training Benjie anything that sit and paw Benjie only behaves for me as he knows I won't take any of his cr*p - he knows how to get food off my in laws - all he has to do is bark at their plates and they give it to him, at my house - he lies down and stays down away from the food or he's the other side of the baby gate.. thats how all my dogs are taught.. There's spirit then just bad manners and ill taught dogs..

To me I have a behaved (I would say well - but we're not 100% there yet) dog who still loves to play and greets me with loads of kisses and cuddles and tail wags - but he still knows his manners and does as he's told (75% of the time - not at the "well" yet) he's still cheeky - he'll nick my socks from the basket and run around like a loon, he'll climb on me when I'm least expecting it for a cuddle and he'll wake me up with a face wash every morning.. he's still cheeky but he's manageable and dare I say trustworthy..

My FiL has no idea what he's talking about IMO..

that is the same with one of my dogs. He will sniff my food and then lie patiently at my feet because I have never fed him while I am eating. Some people have been known to feed him at the table so when they are eating he will bark at them if they are eating too slowly! When guests ask if they can feed him at the table, I say - up to you but if you do he will be in your face every time you eat! He has made the small dog extremely polite when we are eating. He is a - do as I say, not what I do kind of dog!

No.

When Polo was a puppy I started teaching walking on the lead by stopping every time there was tension on the lead. This just taught him to yo-yo.

He would pull quite a bit on lead in the woods and I tried an about turn just before he hit the end of the lead, so he received a correction by merely not watching and following me. I only did it the one session because he would not give me any eye contact and was throwing off loads of calming signals. He is a sensitive dog.

I then used a combination of positive training methods which has made him much more manageable on lead (not perfect but that is because my training skills are not perfect) and doesn't destroy our relationship.

Diesel doesn't even know paw

Mine are not the best behaved dogs, they know certain things, but as long as they are safe and happy, and keep me safe and happy (by not dragging me at break neck speed, by not deafening me by loud barking, and by doing what I need of them) then thats fine, Diesel's never gonna be the obienent Collie you see at Crufts, and Honey could do more, espcially if there are treats involved, and we do learn new things every now and again, but tbh I think my dogs are more happy how they are, we have a bond, and the basics, and a bit more is covered, and whereas Diesel may not know paw, he does know wait, and off lead heel, amoungst others, and every now and again he even knows how his ears work to listen to the commands but I would never do any training that would alter their character, and tbh I don't see why you need to, training should be positive for both dog and owner, and if its not its the owners fault, coz they don't have to listen to the trainer.

There are people who prefer a broken dog to one that is not.

By that I mean, they start to have a very quiet, well behaved dog (because it doesn't bark, run about, make a nuisance of itself) and they think their dog is well behaved.

When in fact it is broken.

My dogs have all been "well behaved" but I love their characters, silliness, all that they do. I'd hate to have created some sort of automaton.

I've not read the link as I think I'd find it depressing Corinthian, but I guess their dog has either shut down or is just keeping out of trouble

I've just gone and read it:

"Millan is inadvertently dulling some of the magic in our special relationships. .....We're applying his red-zone lessons to our off-white buds".

"It's part of the general trend. Life is getting blander. The recession has everyone down. We're all worried about our jobs. The end of the post-9/11 era can't even bring us true joy because we are witnessing the dawn of trillion-dollar deficits. And now the one unconditional area of our lives is under siege. O Cesar Millan! I wish I had never gotten addicted to your program of living.

I'm racked with guilt because -- while I miss my monster -- I'm not going to stop drinking the Kool-Aid".

Sounds as if he's used the harsher methods (his mention of red zone dogs treatment) but hard to tell... however it would explain why his dog is not really keen on him any more. Bloomin' sad if you ask me. And poor dog.



~Wys
x

I wasn't saying any dog needs to learn more - especially the ones that are good as they are. Benjie is fear aggressive - yet they let him run up and down the garden wall barking at people walking past "he's a guard dog".. No he's doing it because he's scared and you're letting him because your elderly neighbours have said they prefer him barking because then they know someone is walking by.. IMO they should get a security light or an alarm.. Benjie has issues and allowing them to occur because of their needs is selfish.. Benjie has no spirit, he is quiet in the house but you rarely get to see any of his character other than the one that grumbles at everyone and anything.. he's only been silly a handful of times and most of these times he's been displaying bad behaviour too - like tugging on the lead..(bad to me - I don't like it) the really good moments are when there's just me and him and he can let loose and play chase with me - he loves that and thats when you see his true character..

If my dogs aren't acting silly when I know they should be - I act silly with them - it's hilarious to see they're faces like "what the fudge are you doing?" then they get "oh hang on.. that looks like fun" then they join in.. unfortunately I have taught Louie a bad habit - he will mock bite when I blow a raspberry and my niece has just learned how to do it.. I suppose it could teach her that it's bad manners

He'd never hurt her - for anyone who's worried about my last sentence - he's either behind the gate or laid down away from her.. and never left unsupervised.

I would rather my dog get up to mischief to make me laugh - he knows too well how to do that too than sit there and do nothing unless I told him too.. I saw too many dogs like this at a kennel I went to apply for a job at.. the owners dogs were too well trained - they weren't allowed to enjoy being dogs..

I remember seeing a Standard Poodle that was a robot, don't think that the owners liked it that I spent every moment I could over the two weeks making him into a dog, but the first time I saw him I was so confused, as at the kennels in the morning we let each dogs into paddocks to do a toilet to let their inside kennels be cleaned by someone else, and before morning walk, anyway I put the hatch down, as soon as said dog saw me he sat down, I thought it was just good manners, I opened the door and jogged down to the paddocks, most dogs love this, and the speeded up movement generally meant they stayed with or near me without needing a lead on (was all inclosed anyway), I got there, dog wasn't near me, I looked for dog, went back to kennel, dog was still sat in the exact position, not a hair out of place, it come about that without commands he wouldn't do anything, wouldn't think for himself, wouldn't even eat out of his bowl without being told, no matter how long he was left, wouldn't wag his tail when going for walks, wouldn't leave your side out and about, I hated it, I felt sorry for the poor dog, and loved near the end when he started to change, but he left too soon, he would never be a 'proper' dog, and what was worse was that he showed no emotion when his owner arrived. I do wonder why some people get dogs, as to me whoever did that to that poor boy didn't understand dogs, and wasn't a trainer, they crushed his spirit, and I don't believe they love dogs as dogs either, I'm just glad you see more cheeky dogs then dogs like him, he was the worst I've ever seen, the worst I want to see, but doesn't this sort if thing encroach on one of the five freedoms? The freedom to express natural behaviour? IDK but you wouldn't expect a child to be like that, so why a dog? (Also slb the second para was just ramblings bout the thread and general stuff but you could always come and try to teach Diesel paw if you want ).

I didn't teach it Louie - my sister did I taught him everything else though - Paw was a hard one for me

Paw was easy with Honey, never worked with master D butI've just given up training him, he's just too much whats in it for me, so apart from the basics thats mostly what he's learnt, and thats more jealously that Honeys getting attention and he's not but other then that its bribery all the way, or there may be something else more intresting, so its like fine Diesel! I'll go where Im wanted! And Honeys always up for it, but with him I think he'll be stubborn until the day he dies bless him.